POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 14 Feb 2018, 04:38

Tiz, not on this scale of magnitude!
Form sent by post Ian but of course I haven't had a ballot paper yet..... I shall give my vote to the lady from Rossendale.
P, you are about right, 'clarified to death' and no doubt still in the dark! Question is will the EU accept the 'clarification' as a basis for getting on with trade talks.... The elephant in the room is Ireland. Bruff was dead right.
See THIS Guardian report on what Yvette Cooper has to say about HMRC's preparations for upgrading arrangements when we leave the EU. The government response is that she is being ridiculous. Not a very respectful way to treat a Parliamentary Committee. Does this mean that they are perfectly prepared? Remember the proposal for a 'Dad's Army' corps of voluntary customs officers at small ports?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 15 Feb 2018, 06:40

A bit of history first. I gleaned this from Norman's chapter on Israel, he is relating the Birth of the State and Zionism, the extreme wing of political thought. I suspect that like you I have been puzzled and exasperated over the years that such a noble cause as establishing a homeland for the Jews could produce so much strife. Read on, there are some clues here.

"This alternate militant strategy, Revisionist Zionism, was best expounded in a work by Vladimir Jabotinsky, 'The Iron Wall (1923)'. it's ruthless uncompromising stance grew in credibility during the 1920s and 1930s with the rise of Pan Arab Nationalism.It's central propositions are easily stated:
First. "every indigenous people will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger..... That is what the Arabs of Palestine will do as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of 'Palestine' into the 'land of Israel"
Secondly: "Zionist colonisation must either be terminated or carried on in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonisation can only continue and develop under a force independent of the locals, an 'Iron Wall' which the native population cannot break through."
Nearly a century after the Iron Wall was published Israel's government is headed by Benjamin Netanyahu, a man steeped in the Revisionist tradition and one can only conclude that Jabotinsky's followers have won the argument. Indeed, their policies were already beginning to get the upper hand within Zionism in the late 1930s without due attribution."
Meanwhile here at home.... I am still trying to work out why Bo-Jo's speech yesterday was given so much air time. What I heard was tired rhetoric and the message to the Remain factions was 'Be reasonable. See it our way'. Quite how this is any clarification of the position escapes me. I suspect the EU will feel the same.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Feb 2018, 07:59

I've just been listening to a Danish politician on Today talking basic common sense, something that is sadly lacking in the internal UK debate about Brexit. His point was that the UK has good friends in the EU who are in favour of a post Brexit arrangement that is best for everyone. He said that the main thing that is needed at the moment is clarification from us as to what exactly our position is and that he hopes T May will give this in her coming policy statement. I fear he is going to be disappointed! My reason for saying this is that there is no agreed position for her to state.
We need a short sharp dose of common sense and unity.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 16 Feb 2018, 10:13

Stanley wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 07:59
..His point was that the UK has good friends in the EU...
That's something that I keep trying to tell people and a fundamental reason why we shouldn't be leaving the EU. We have influence, we have the ability to damp down some of the wilder elements in the Union, they listen to us. This is why they are so dumbfounded about us saying we'll leave. In the historic perspective the EU is still relatively new, it's like a teenager torn by different desires and motivations. We could play a major part in bringing the EU to its adult stage. Instead we're shutting the door in its face and simultaneously pandering to the same selfish and isolationist attitudes in the UK that are causing unrest in other European countries and the USA.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Feb 2018, 04:20

Eminently good common sense Tiz and I totally agree. Star Trek was correct in that eventually we need a global federation. The EU is a first step along what could be a long road if it can survive. I don't see any other hopeful global initiative. Boris et al see it on the level of a playground gang, they are not fit to hold office if marked on the 'vision' content of their thinking. All they see is the short term and the money.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 17 Feb 2018, 11:16

I see the Telegraph is doing its best to put the knife in Jeremy Corbyn with all this `commie spy' business. When you consider the extent of Russian interference in news and their extensive dirty tricks operations why should we believe what a former Russian agent says about one of our political leaders?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 17 Feb 2018, 19:21

The Telegraph has made a big splash of this by using some distorted logic that runs like..... All diplomats, because they are employed by a government, are spies of that government. This naturally applies to our own diplomats. If you talk to a diplomat and release information however innocuous in the Telegraph's eyes you are a traitor. If we now take this one step further we shall see the biggest traitor during this period was Mrs Thatcher. She met with Gorbachev, the top communist, several times and even declared that " this was a man you can do business with" To claim that she expelled ' Corbyn's spy' is stretching this a bit far, it was only after the failure of the Reykjavik meeting (1985) along with Bush and Gorbachev that as a smokescreen she expelled a number of the Russian embassy staff.

Unfortunately not everyone reads the OG site.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 18 Feb 2018, 04:22

"Unfortunately not everyone reads the OG site."
Good job they don't P as it would take all the fun out of it! The continuous attack on Jeremy denotes only one thing, that they are as worried as hall because of his success.
I listened to T May doing her schoolmarm bit at the conference. Her first bit of 'clarification' is nothing more than a diversion, 'be reasonable and do things our way'. Mrs Merkel will be even more 'curious'.
Sooner or later they are going to have to address the three pressing questions and as we are repeatedly told, time is running out. John Paul Junkers told her as much in his response, security matters are nothing to do with the clarifications needed immediately.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 18 Feb 2018, 10:38

I made an error and should have written Czech agent instead of Russian agent in my post. The present Czech Security Service has supported Corbyn and stated that the spying claims against him are untrue and that he wasn't aware of any links with spying.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 19 Feb 2018, 04:26

T May throws more sand in the voter's eyes today by announcing an 'initiative' on tuition fees which is actually a cunning wheeze to get money out of the students without building up the massive backlog of unpaid debt which is drowning the original scheme. It begins to look as though the old system of free education and maintenance grants was actually cheaper in the long run. A bit like PFI!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 20 Feb 2018, 06:27

D Davis is to make a speech today and as usual we know in advance what he is going to say. See THIS BBC report. What strikes me is that once again, instead of shedding some light on the proposals to satisfy the Three Big Questions, all we are getting is waffle based on belief and not facts. I note that he doesn't specifically rule out movements in financial matters that will make us attractive to foreign investors. (Money laundering?)
Gove is being equally vague about the answers that the farming industry needs because their investment plans have to be based on conditions five years ahead. For example, that's how long it takes to produce a heifer in milk.
We have managed university education so well that we now have the most expensive system in the world. According to Lord Adonis, the universities are drawing in 20% more money and in consequence have allowed their administrations to become bloated, a bit like Vice Chancellor's pay. A three year degree course involves a debt of around £50,000 at interest rates over 6%, where else can you get a return like that? What I would like to know is who underwrites this debt and gets the interest? Are we looking at another example of outsourcing to the private sector who are extracting their pound of flesh?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 20 Feb 2018, 09:00

David Davis's comments "David Davis will say fears about a 'race to the bottom" in workers' rights and environmental standards are "based on nothing"'. One doesn't have to rewrite specifications to a lower standard or actively cut wages, all you have to do is stand still. We are seeing the affect of this now with wages and interest rates on savings lagging substantially behind inflation. ie: an indirect wage cut. Then we have these mysterious trade agreements which have the potential to include clauses that suggest any change to a national standard which affects the importers profits could be subject to litigation. We have never been good at leading the pack on subjects like offshore bank accounts and tax loopholes but like good volunteers have always waited for someone else to take the initiative. The general approach is 'keep calm, and pray that it all comes good at the end'. Not a good position to be in.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 20 Feb 2018, 09:17

Stanley wrote:
20 Feb 2018, 06:27
What I would like to know is who underwrites this debt and gets the interest? Are we looking at another example of outsourcing to the private sector who are extracting their pound of flesh?
The objective is to sell SLC, or its debts, to the private sector (and you know what I think about selling people's debt). See this from the SLC annual report (BIS = Dept for Business, Innovation and Skills, HMT = HM Treasury). This is why the interest rate has been pitched so high, to make it attractive to the City...

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SLC annual report: LINK

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 20 Feb 2018, 22:46

It looks like the Corbyn 'Spy' has finally been put to rest.
The rightwing press plus Mrs May have all got egg on their faces through trying to portray what was a lie and at best a load of mischief.

Without going into detail here are the links to follow.
The Guardian.
YouTube 'Corbyn Speach.
youTube. Tom Watson Comments.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 21 Feb 2018, 01:08

No smoke without fire!

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 21 Feb 2018, 03:46

"No smoke without fire!" The last resort of the conspiracy theorist when shown proof he is wrong, sow doubt. Get real China.....
Will it be reported in the papers that gave us nuns with snow on their boots and who supported fascist causes in the 1930s? The bottom line is that Corbyn scares them to death, he has a habit of telling it as it is.
Re clarification of Brexit position. I have seen no evidence that there is a unified position! Why is the fate of the UK in the hands of a bunch of deluded right wing failed politicians?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 21 Feb 2018, 08:33

These communist spy allegations are a re-run of the smear campaign against Ramsey MacDonald's Labour Prime Mister of 1924. The "Zinoviev" letter was later shown to be a forgery but it was too late to prevent a Labour Government winning the election. Link. No smoke without fire? The rightwing press have their own smoke generating machines which rely on misleading 'smash' headlines but with no underlying substance.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 21 Feb 2018, 09:52

Stanley wrote:
21 Feb 2018, 03:46
Why is the fate of the UK in the hands of a bunch of deluded right wing failed politicians?
plaques wrote:
21 Feb 2018, 08:33
The rightwing press have their own smoke generating machines which rely on misleading 'smash' headlines but with no underlying substance.
Speak of the devil....
`Brexit: The history of the Tories' influential European Research Group' LINK

And now for something different...
These 15 minute programmes are currently on Radio 4 at 13.45 each weekday: LINK
`British Socialism: The Grand Tour'

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 Feb 2018, 04:23

Two good links Tiz. PE has been banging on for years about the Brexit group.....
P, nice one. my mind flew immediately to the Zinoviev Letter but I forbore using it as an example of fake news. I also remembered Philby at al and the keeper of the queen's pictures......
Possibly more pertinent is the reappearance of the 'Reds Under the Bed' syndrome. Think McCarthy and the post WW2 witch hunts in the US. Go back even earlier to France and the Dreyfuss Affair.
There is a long history of political systems trying to obfuscate and divert by raising bogey men. It is closely related to the Politics of Fear. In 1944 when the US government realised that if the public withdrew the money loaned to it in War Bonds it could trigger enormous strains in the economy they needed a Cunning Wheeze and anti-Communism fitted the bill perfectly. The effect on US policies persists to this day. In the 19th century, fear of the 'Russian Bear' was used in the UK and focussed on the corridor between Russia and India, the theory was that Russia was expanding its influence towards the Jewel in the Crown. This triggered the famous 'Peccavi' message to the Foreign Office, see this LINK to Charles James Napier. It also led to our ill-fated incursion into Afghanistan, the first of many! At the end of the Great War the Russian Revolution panicked the government and spawned 'A land fit for heroes' and tanks on the streets of Glasgow in case Red Clydeside rose in revolt. (LINK)

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Tanks in Gallowgate Market in 1919. Never used but there just in case.

Any sign of coalescence or united action in the lower orders is anathema to the Right, think actions against Chartists, Luddites and the Peterloo Massacre. Then look at Tory party membership figures and compare them to Labour and you have the roots of the present artificial witch hunt of Corbyn. The campaign emanating from the Far Right is a sure sign of just how fearful they are of united opposition based on a clear view of the truth and not Party Spin.
Later....I hear that the Trump has said that if teachers are trained and armed it would stop school shootings..... Words fail me, add your own opinion.
Meanwhile, in another part of the forest.... Read THIS for a BBC account of today's summit meeting at Chequers. What isn't emphasised in this report is that this is the Last Ditch Saloon, a decision has to be made ASAP because the EU have set a deadline. This could mean resignations if T May goes for the jugular. Tension mounts!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 Feb 2018, 08:51

I remember a little story told by my pal who was in the Toronto, Canada, police force. A gang of armed robbers tried to hold up the bank which just happened to be next door to the police station. So much for forward planning. When the alarm went off the police simply ran out and surrounded the bank. The robbers ran out and the police started shooting. Windows were broken anything up to four stories high, numerous cars and other bits of street furniture were shot up. All by police bullets. No robbers were injured. Subsequently all the force was made to go on compulsory firearms training every four months. Just think of what could happen in a school if group of teachers got involved with such a shoot out.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 22 Feb 2018, 11:53

The US National Rifle Association must be laughing all the way to the armoury. By calling for teachers to be armed Trump has just done a wonderful promotion for weaponising the public and educating kids in the so called `need for guns'. I'm lost for words!

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 23 Feb 2018, 04:25

The first think their spokesman did was repeat the old slogan "If a bad guy has a gun it takes a good guy with a gun to stop him." I saw that bumper sticker in NY in 1980. I watch a bloke called Steve Summers machining on Youtube occasionally and it shows the difference in mentalities that when I saw that he had an automatic in his back pocket the other day while he was in the shed I was shocked. The door to his shed is heavily barred as well. I'm afraid that much of America has a gun mentality. I've just remembered a conversation I had in the Mid-West during my travels when I was in conversation with a man who told me that his first requirement when buying a house was that it should have a good field of fire..... This is what the politics of fear does to people, it's self-fulfilling and there is no quick fix for it.
See THIS BBC report on the Chequers Brexit talks. Reading between the lines it looks to me that they have produced 'a form of words' they can all agree to. This indicates a fudge again and it will be interesting to see what the EU response is. Don't hold your breath!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 23 Feb 2018, 09:48

So much for having armed people protecting schools...
`Florida school shooting: Armed officer 'did not confront killer' LINK
"An armed officer assigned to the Florida school where a gunman killed 17 people last week stood outside the building during the shooting and did not intervene, the local sheriff says. Deputy Scot Peterson has resigned after being suspended, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said. "I am devastated. Sick to my stomach. He never went in," Sheriff Israel said. Earlier this week President Trump said arming school teachers could prevent school shootings. The proposal has long been championed by the powerful National Rifle Association (NRA) gun lobby. On Thursday, in the NRA's first comments since the massacre, its head accused Democrats and media of "exploiting" the attack. Wayne LaPierre said "opportunists" were using the tragedy to expand gun control and abolish US gun rights."

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 23 Feb 2018, 12:52

Trump.
Strange how at a Trump rally surrounded by his faithful follows they are made to hand in any guns when they enter the arena. Surely on his own logic it would far safer it he made it compulsory that they carried guns. He could rely on hundreds of people rather than a few bodyguards.
Meanwhile back at the Brexit swamp.
The alligators have been meeting at Chequers to decide how to carve up their future job prospects and pensions. Mrs May's future has probably already been decided but what we don't quite know is when they have decided she shall go. This doubt about the abdication date may be one reason for the sudden flush of anti Corbyn 'revelations' that covers anything from communist spy, Marxist advocate, sneaky thinker and plant talker leek grower plus any other nonsense you can think of. Are we being softened up for the possibility of general election should Mrs May fall at a no confidence vote or are they looking ahead at the next local London Borough elections where the Tories are behind in the opinion polls? The more observant may have noticed that then what it good for the general public is not up for consideration. Its all about survival.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 24 Feb 2018, 04:00

Tiz, it's a waste of time trying to understand the mind set of anyone who supports the NRA. They are too far removed from normally wired up brains to be comprehendable.
P. A very perceptive take on Brexit. There is no doubt that the May Council elections are the most immediate threat to the Tories but as you say, at the back of their minds is the general election that is inevitable even if they survive the full term. It is going to be difficult even if Brexit goes smoothly, if not it will be a blood bath.
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