POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 27 Mar 2018, 08:09

Just a note on Russia, so we instigate knee jerk reaction regarding the nerve agent episode with no actual evidence because we are told that we all need an instant answer. Within a couple of weeks this triggers a global withdrawal of every foreign spy based inside Russia. Just when you need the snippets of insider information, what a good idea! History tells us that conventional espionage tactics are exactly the opposite and each nation does it's very best to plant as many agents as it can in the opposition camp. Taking them all away is the madness in this situation.

The Corbyn thing, I was hoping to post a link to "The Jewish Voice for Labour" site but I's not working at the moment because the site has fallen over due to bandwidth overload. It may wake up again when the sh.... has cleared the fan.

JVL - Statement on the current attacks on Jeremy Corbyn

The activists of this group have taken exception to their ruling body over their support of Jeremy Corbyn. This is more an internal tiff which should be resolved in house. It's a bit like the loony fringe in any organisation, tail trying to wag the dog!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 27 Mar 2018, 09:09

It was good to hear Chris Patten this morning on the Today programme saying Brexit is wrong but if we're committed to it then it's essential we stay in the customs union. Another experienced voice joining the fray.

--------------------------------------------
Jeremy Corbyn should have been working with JVL much earlier and showing that he really was committed to fighting anti-semitism in the Labour Party and elsewhere. He left it too long and now the damage has been done. No wonder people have doubted whether he really was against anti-semitism when there were obvious bad examples within the Party, as he admits in his letter to JVL. In the letter he says: `Newer forms of antisemitism have been woven into criticism of Israeli governments. Criticism of Israel, particularly in relation to the continuing dispossession of the Palestinian people, cannot be avoided.' This is where he needed to tread more carefully, wanting to criticise Israel over Palestine but running the risk of finding himself regarded as being against the Jews more generally. For the record, here is the letter from JC to the organisers of the Jewish leaders protest...

Dear Jonathan and Jonathan,
Thank you for your letter to the Labour Party concerning antisemitism issued as a press statement last night.

First of all, let me acknowledge the anger and upset that provoked it, and repeat my offer of an urgent meeting to discuss the issues you have raised as soon as possible. I stated yesterday, and repeat today, that I will not tolerate any form of antisemitism that exists in or around our party and movement. I am committed to eliminating antisemitism wherever it exists.

As I told the Labour Party conference in 2016, antisemitism is an evil that led to the worst crimes of the 20th century. Prejudice and hatred of Jewish people has no place whatsoever in the Labour Party, and every one of us has a responsibility to ensure it is never allowed to fester in our society again.

I recognise that antisemitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples. This has caused pain and hurt to Jewish members of our Party and to the wider Jewish community in Britain. I am sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused, and pledge to redouble my efforts to bring this anxiety to an end.

While the forms of antisemitism expressed on the far Right of politics are easily detectable, such as Holocaust denial, there needs to be a deeper understanding of what constitutes antisemitism in the labour movement. Sometimes this evil takes familiar forms – the east London mural which has caused such understandable controversy is an example. The idea of Jewish bankers and capitalists exploiting the workers of the world is an old antisemitic conspiracy theory. This was long ago, and rightly, described as “the socialism of fools.” I am sorry for not having studied the content of the mural more closely before wrongly questioning its removal in 2012.

Newer forms of antisemitism have been woven into criticism of Israeli governments. Criticism of Israel, particularly in relation to the continuing dispossession of the Palestinian people, cannot be avoided. Nevertheless, comparing Israel or the actions of Israeli governments to the Nazis, attributing criticisms of Israel to Jewish characteristics or to Jewish people in general and using abusive phraseology about supporters of Israel such as “Zio” all constitute aspects of contemporary antisemitism. And Jewish people must not be held responsible or accountable for the actions of the Israeli government.

The Labour Party has always opposed antisemitism, old and new, and always will. We are proud of our deep historical links with Jewish communities, and to have fought alongside generations of Jewish men and women against fascism, prejudice and discrimination. This is a part of our common heritage from which we will never be separated. But I acknowledge that antisemitic attitudes have surfaced more often in our ranks in recent years, and that the Party has been too slow in processing some of the cases that have emerged. Early action has nevertheless been taken, and we will work to speed up procedures, to deal with cases of antisemitic abuse or attitudes.

I am committed to making our Party a welcoming and secure place for Jewish people. Zero tolerance for antisemites means what it says, and the Party will proceed in that spirit. That demands among other things the overdue full implementation of the recommendations of the Chakrabarti report, including a programme of political education to increase awareness and understanding of all forms of antisemitism.

The battle against antisemitism should never become a party political issue. It must unite all of us if we are both to honour the memory of the victims of the bestial crimes of the 20th century and build a future of equality and justice for all.

In that spirit, I must make it clear that I will never be anything other than a militant opponent of antisemitism. In this fight, I am your ally and always will be.

Best wishes,
Jeremy Corbyn MP

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 27 Mar 2018, 09:20

I think you are spot on P. When the going gets tough invent and enemy and wrap yourself in the flag.
As for the anti-Corbyn campaign, there is anti Semitism embedded in society as well as the parties. Plenty of evidence for that. Compounded by the fact that many confuse Semitism with Zionism and conflate the Palestine problem with it. I think that whilst there is plenty to beef about in the way he has handled the politics, Corbyn's personal stance can't be faulted as evidenced by the letter to the Jewish Voice for Labour. It's to be hoped he also copied it to the Board of Deputies....
On a slightly lighter note, some food for thought.
I've finished reading Sybil, I have two quotes for you from the last page where Disraeli is signing himself off. The first is the PM (Wellington I think) giving his deputy instructions on how to deal with two opposing delegations expected at Downing Street:-
"Be 'frank and straight', that is the right line to take when you wish to conceal your mind and confuse the minds of others".
The last lines of all:-
We live in a time when to be young and to be indifferent are no longer synonymous. The youth of the nation are the trustees of posterity.
He was in front of the curve......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 28 Mar 2018, 06:22

I'm sure many of you will have noted the attacks on Jeremy Corbyn connected with the anti-Semitic mural. This is in no way a defence of Jeremy, there were many things wrong with the mural and it should have been condemned outright. However, one of the criticisms of the mural was the fact that it used stereotypical images of Jewish features which would not have been out of place in Hitler's Germany. Quite right and I agree with that but images are tricky things.
One of my favourite authors is Isaac Bashevis Singer who is of course quintessentially Jewish as are his stories. In 1967 the Avon Library in New York published a reprint of Singer's short stories 'Gimpel the Fool' (I recommend it if you have never read any of his books.) Here is the cover of it, doubtless approved before use by Singer because he was alive until the 90s. My point is that I think this also would not have been out of place in Hitler's Germany. Tricky stuff these images.....

Image
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 28 Mar 2018, 09:40

It's not the words or images themselves but the way they are used that causes the biggest problems.

`EU referendum won through fraud, whistleblower tells MPs' LINK
`The EU referendum was won through fraud, the whistleblower Christopher Wylie has told MPs, accusing Vote Leave of improperly channelling money through a tech firm with links to Cambridge Analytica. Wylie told a select committee that the pro-Brexit campaign had a “common plan” to use the network of companies to get around election spending laws and said he thought there “could have been a different outcome had there not been, in my view, cheating”. “It makes me so angry, because a lot of people supported leave because they believe in the application of British law and British sovereignty. And to irrevocably alter the constitutional settlement of this country on fraud is a mutilation of the constitutional settlement of this country.”....

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 28 Mar 2018, 11:58

Looks like the latest smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn has not duped everyone. As I post nearly 4,000 people have joined the Labour Party since yesterday. :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 29 Mar 2018, 02:34

Good! Personal abuse always backfires in the end if there is no basis for it.
Tiz I realise that but the point about tricky images stands. I sent the post to Uncle Bob and he thought it was excellent.....
I am disturbed by the forced resignation of Nick Hardwick, leader of the Worboys parole panel after the reversal of the decision to grant parole. It's complicated but I suspect he has been made a scapegoat for failings in the system which are actually best laid at the door of David Gauke the Justice Minister. The fact that the victims had to crowd fund an important case like this shows up the failings in the legal aid system.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 29 Mar 2018, 10:42

The guns have turned on Gauke and he is facing demands to resign. LINK

Once again Tony Blair has been on the Today programme and clearly presents the reasons we should not leave the EU and the fact that we can still choose not to leave. LINK (I've given the link just for the record but it doesn't give much of what Blair said on the programme, unfortunately.)

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 29 Mar 2018, 12:14

The Egyptian elections. There are 2 candidates but the loser manages to come in 3rd behind 'spoiled ballots'.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 29 Mar 2018, 15:48

Hey, that's what might happen at our next General Election! :extrawink:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 30 Mar 2018, 03:01

I like the fact that Gauke is under pressure, I feel pretty sure he is culpable here.
I'm listened to Blair and have to admit he makes sense even though I have to admit my blood pressure goes up every time I hear his voice!
I'm getting to the stage where I have a similar reaction to T May. In political terms she has pulled the bacon out of the fire and is now firmly entrenched as the woman who saved the country..... That is if you believe what she said on her whistle stop tour yesterday. She tells us the negotiations are on track, we shall have squillions to spend on March 29th 2019 and the future is bright. I don't buy it and I think this might bite her later. Ireland and Gibraltar together with the losses already suffered in the Brexit process seem to have vanished like mist in the sunshine.
I can imagine some knowing glances in Brussels....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 31 Mar 2018, 05:34

The ethos of being 'economical with the truth' seems to be infecting local politics. I learned yesterday that the Conservative candidate in the local elections for Coates gives his address as Victoria Road Barnoldswick which of course is actually Earby.
THIS caught my attention this morning. I don't see how Corbyn could deal more positively with the current problems. It would be honest and perhaps a positive move if the other parties did the same. Anti-Semitism exists and is not confined to the Labour Party!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 01 Apr 2018, 06:05

I'm watching the frenzy that is developing over Facebook Groups and vile comments. I can't make moss nor sand out of all this and I'm reserving judgement until the fog clears. It all disturbs me.
One thing that strikes me is that these phenomena tend to widen out and escalate before they subside. Those who are jumping on this present bandwagon to 'bash' Labour should be very careful. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some research going on for other examples not originating in Labour. There will be some and this could get very nasty.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 01 Apr 2018, 07:47

Yes I know its April Fools day but most 'fools' news are harmless nonsense that can safely be ignored. This item from the Daily Star may fit into that bracket but on the other hand it may be bad news for Mrs May. Quote. BRITISH double agent Sergei Skripal may have been poisoned by porridge that was brought by his daughter’s mate, officers have claimed.Link. Its seems to make more sense than the other door handle reports.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 01 Apr 2018, 09:15

I don't like all the raving criticism of Corbyn over anti-Semitism etc when there seems to be little discussion of its existence among other politicians and parties. On the other hand Corbyn was slow to show his concern and take any action. I suspect Labour is now suffering from having been quicker to take up social media than were the other parties. Social media, like so much else, has good and bad aspects. If you take advantage of social media you have to be prepared to take all the flak that it brings. Live by the sword die by the sword.

Something that makes all this anti-Semitism news more difficult to deal with is that many people now don't distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism. If, like me, you don't approve of the way that Israel treats the Palestinians yet you have nothing against Jews you are, nevertheless, liable to be classed as anti-Semitic. There's an urgent need for greater spread of information like that in this BBC `explainer' article: LINK

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 02 Apr 2018, 03:30

Exactly Tiz. That's my problem as well. I make a distinction between Judaism and rabid Zionism. Cressida Dick gave nastiness on social media as one of the reasons for the rise in knife crime. I think in that matter she is being disingenuous, could be funding cuts and lack of police on the streets but there is no doubt that, useful though it is, it seems to bring out the worst in people.....
At the moment it's being used for bashing Labour but could very easily become your two-edged sword.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 02 Apr 2018, 08:40

PanBiker wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 11:58
Looks like the latest smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn has not duped everyone. As I post nearly 4,000 people have joined the Labour Party since yesterday. :smile:
Compare with today's report : 17000 members quit Labour over anti-semitism row: Pressure grows on Jeremy Corbyn as he deletes his Facebook account and TWELVE party staff are revealed to be in vile hate groups. Daily Mail 2/4/2018

Which report do you believe, if any?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 02 Apr 2018, 08:52

Daily Mail, yeah right. :laugh5:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 02 Apr 2018, 09:19

It's hard to weigh up exactly what is happening to Labour Party membership, there are so many differing accounts. Janice Turner, a Times journalist, long-time strong Labour supporter and feisty Doncaster lass, wrote this weekend that the turning point has come and she won't be voting Labour next time. She relates many of her own experiences and those of others that she's interviewed and she's mortified by the behaviour of Corbyn and Momentum. I've said, not long ago, that I might have to vote Labour next time to get the Tories out but now I'm feeling I need to keep Corbyn Labour out too. The trouble is, how can I keep them both out? We need a new political party and soon, or a very big change for the better to at least one of the major parties.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 02 Apr 2018, 11:34

Oh and before you say it China, I know everyone else is reporting the same. The Labour Party has rocking on 600,000 members and is the largest in the country. Anyone who believes all the hype over this enough to quit, doesn't belong in the party.

Picked this up over the weekend from a Tom Pride blog, just about sums it up for me and many others:

"You've got to admit though. Jeremy Corbyn managing to combine being a Czech spy, a Putin collaborator, a neo-Nazi, a member of ISIS, the IRA and the Communist Party with being leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, and still finding time to make jam, is bloody impressive." :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 02 Apr 2018, 11:47

From EvolvePolitics:

Tory Racism and Abuse
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 02 Apr 2018, 13:38

PanBiker wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 11:47
From EvolvePolitics:

Tory Racism and Abuse
:good: :biggrin2:

I'm only stirring the pot, don't you know me by now?!

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 03 Apr 2018, 02:34

On something as serious as the breakdown of civilised politics in the UK and the apparent lack of integrity in some sections of both sides, levity is, to put it mildly, a bit superfluous China. I like a joke as much as anyone but this is way beyond humour.
I said the other day that I was going to wait and see. I am still doing that. One thing is certain, I am not considering ditching my membership. Ian is right and this is essentially a shit storm, a perfect example of how the ease of social media trolling is distorting some subjects.
Notice how the SNP and LibDem are keeping quiet.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 03 Apr 2018, 08:01

The anti-semitism question gets even more complicated. It now appears that if you start talking and engaging the Jewish population you have to choose the correct group to talk to. Corbyn is now criticised for talking to the wrong group. Link. Never mind the ball play the man?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 03 Apr 2018, 09:39

Apparently it was Corbyn's `night off' so he went along to the meeting, but it seems he didn't tell any of his colleagues that he'd be attending. The BBC report says Jon Lansman, founder of Momentum, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "It was his night off, he had nothing in his official diary, his office didn't know he was there." It's this sort of thing that has fed the cartoonists and satirical commentators with the idea that he spends most of his time at home in the kitchen jam-making. He's Leader of the Opposition, for goodness sake! Oh well, I've got to look on the bright side - at least he provides me with entertainment! :smile:

Ian, the size of a party's membership is not a reliable predictor of how well it would do in an election or how effective it would be at governing the country. Even 600,000 is only a small proportion of UK voters. The vast majority don't join a political party. Some parties are more geared up to gaining support by people joining them like a club, others depend more on those who are not going to join parties even if they will vote for them.

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