POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 15 Aug 2018, 17:30

It would be wrong for me to say I disagree with everything the Tory Government does. There are odd occasions when they have been forced into a corner and common sense prevails. Usually its a case of ignoring public opinion, say nothing and carry on as normal or if things get really bad go on holiday. After years of politicians being economical with the truth and at times being outright liars its not surprising the natural reaction is to reject / oppose everything and try to figure out what they really mean. Me sceptical... never.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 16 Aug 2018, 01:54

The party not in power are called the Opposition. They are still MPs and should be doing their job of helping to govern the country. If you were running a company you would expect everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet and get rid of those employees who didn't.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Aug 2018, 02:48

One man's traitor is another man's principled opposition.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 16 Aug 2018, 04:46

:biggrin2:
I do come out with a load of rubbish sometimes! :extrawink:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Aug 2018, 05:26

Different strokes China. I try to avoid it....
What strikes me is the complete absence of any word about Brexit. The professional negotiators must be talking in Brussels but no word is being leaked out to the proles, we are completely in the dark. The only clue we are getting is the warning about an 'accidental no-deal'. In other words a simple matter of running out of time and no clear agreement reached before March. If this does happen it is a clear indictment of the whole process and the way it has been managed. Chief amongst these problems is the continuing inability of the Tories to agree a negotiating position amongst themselves and all the attempts so far have been dismissed unofficially by the EU.
I fear that once more, Richard will be proved right, there will be a bad result and the blame will be put squarely on Brussels with stirring references to the bulldog spirit and days of Empire...... What a bloody cock-up!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 16 Aug 2018, 08:01

Stanley wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 05:26
What strikes me is the complete absence of any word about Brexit.
As we all know we live in a totally democratic country where the 'free' press can chose to print anything they consider newsworthy. Perhaps we are taking a lead from America where they can select the news bits they want, ignore them altogether or refuse to print independent reports on subjects they disagree with even if they are in national importance. Downing Street have their own favored newspapers where they can disseminate their own spin and propaganda and hopefully brainwash the proles into their way of thinking. We may now be in a situation where Downing St are simply saying " say nothing" and our rightwing press are doing what they are told. Democracy is for the elite not for the population.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 16 Aug 2018, 08:45

Plaques, it's looking a bit different in the USA!...
`Trump's 'dirty war' on media draws editorials in 300 US outlets' LINK
`More than 300 news outlets are launching a campaign on Thursday to counter President Donald Trump's attacks and promote a free press. The Boston Globe made the call last week for a nationwide denouncement of the president's "dirty war" against the media, using the hashtag #EnemyOfNone. Mr Trump has derided media reports as "fake news" and attacked journalists as "enemies of the people". UN experts have said this raises the risk of violence against journalists.'

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Stanley, I think it's quiet in Brussels because the EU negotiators are silently watching and waiting while Mrs May makes her progress round the EU national leaders trying to convince them all that Brexit will be a smooth path to the bright sunlit uplands for them all, just like for us.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Aug 2018, 02:51

You're right P.
So are you Tiz. I suspect that Brussels is just watching and waiting for the eventual cock-up.
China was saying the other day that our opposition should oppose. The last thing any of them want is a chance to take power just when the shit hits the fan, it would be political suicide. Even if someone reversed the application to leave it would still be a disaster. Just imagine the situation when things are on a knife edge and the government goes on Xmas holidays.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 17 Aug 2018, 03:45

Stop worrying about Brexit, the country survived WW2. In another 5 years the UK will still be there and people will be moaning about something else, maybe the cost of Chianti or water melons! :biggrin2:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Aug 2018, 04:06

You've missed the point China. Brexit could leave us in a worse state than WW2. As it is many public services are below that standard now and they are not going to get any better.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 17 Aug 2018, 04:46

Stanley wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 04:06
You've missed the point China. Brexit could leave us in a worse state than WW2. As it is many public services are below that standard now and they are not going to get any better.
There doesn't seem to be any doubt that you'll be worse off, Richard (Bruff) has already pointed that out. The glory days of Great Britain are gone; the UK is, or will be, a small insignificant nation like New Zealand, good for butter and cheese. Get used to it and get along with Life. Accept what you cannot change.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Aug 2018, 06:27

You're still missing the point China. Yes you are right and I have argued for a realistic vision of the UK's actual position in the world for years instead of this silly 'punching above our weight' rhetoric. However the fact is that we can deal with this but the deterioration that is going to come after Brexit is self-inflicted, there is no need for it and this is going to have a great affect on us for many years, mainly on the lowest 85% of the population in terms of domestic income. It used to be just the poor but the comfortable middle classes are feeling it now. 50% of that group can't save £10 a week on their income. The lower incomes are even worse off. This extra burden is entirely down to government policies since 2010.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 17 Aug 2018, 09:09

This article was published in The Times last Saturday (11th Aug 2018) and was written by the Deputy Political Editor, Sam Coates. He spends a lot of time with our politicians and it's worth reading what he has to say about their behaviour in these strange times.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 17 Aug 2018, 12:05

Corbyn has launched a complaint to the press regulator that the resent coverage of the wreath laying is a misrepresentation of the facts. Link. This is an unusual reaction by Corbyn who tends to reply with the facts and avoids retaliating directly against his tormentors. It may take some time before we get an independent analysis but meanwhile the rightwing press will continue muddying the waters by quoting reports from outside the UK which cannot be put before the press regulator.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 18 Aug 2018, 02:54

Good article Tiz and it confirms what we both think about the calibre of 'leadership' in politics these days. When I posted that speech by Nye Bevan I was trying to make the point that there spoke a man who had experience, had a star to steer by and was perfectly clear about his views and reasons for holding them. Experience and firm principles may still exist but MPs are not voicing them fearlessly. Until this happens, as Sam Coates says, expect 'low wattage' performances!
P is right, these furores and smears must be ignored for what they are.
I still believe that Jeremy Corbyn has those ethics and principles and he is the only politician I have heard voicing them clearly. This was what got him the support of the membership. This is what he needs to be doing now and his party colleagues must recognise this and support him. I watch and wait.......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 18 Aug 2018, 09:03

It looks like the Independent has a similar opinion to us when it comes to our political leaders. This was yesterday's front page...

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 19 Aug 2018, 03:45

All that's missing is a guillotine!
I forecast a long time ago, when the Tories started project 'return to the glorious past' in 2010 that in the long run it would backfire on them and eventually drive them out of office. I have not changed that opinion. Despite the angst and turmoil of the Westminster and Metropolitan Bubble I have little doubt that a free vote in Parliament, let alone a rerun of the referendum, would reverse Brexit. My forecast now is an incredibly messy and damaging exit in March and a long period of turmoil and deprivation. No wonder none of the possible claimants to power is willing to come forwards. They will eventually and on the Tory side will blame the EU, Barnier and May's mismanagement of the process. Whoever takes over is on a hiding to nothing.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 19 Aug 2018, 09:17

The Brexit situation pales into insignificance as Trump moves the doomsday clock nearer to midnight. We are now seeing an increase in propaganda based news reports that both Russian and China are becoming more active in the North Atlantic. To counteract this imaginary threat Trump has countermanded Obama's reduction in naval warships increasing them to cold war levels. The UK has joined this nonsense by saying that the maiden voyage of our own white elephant 'HMS Queen Elizabeth, is under 'eye watering' threats from Russian submarines as it crosses the Atlantic. At the same time NASA has spotted something strange about a Russian satellite which requires an expansion of defensive weaponry in space. ie: back to star wars. The big worry in all this saber rattling is that is reduces the nuclear retaliation response time down to zero relying on computer programmes to decide what action to take. What could go wrong? This man is dangerous and we should be keeping him at arms length as much as possible.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 19 Aug 2018, 09:24

There's a growing movement pressing for a second referendum and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it happens. The younger generations are realising that that they will be the ones most affected and they seem to be more aware and informed on the dangers of Brexit. At the same time, the Ultra-Tory Mogg Mob are raising steam but I expect that will result in the youngsters being even more determined to put an end to Brexit. Failing a referendum I'm still counting on `events dear boy' putting a depth charge under Brexit. :smile:

As for HMS QE, keep in mind my post some months ago about how other nations, even small ones, have been developing land-based missile devices that will seek and destroy a carrier, or any other ship, 1000 miles from shore.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 20 Aug 2018, 04:42

Queen Elizabeth..... quite! A Russian spokesman did say that it was a splendid target.
Brexit...... no official pronouncements beyond the fact that Mrs May rules out any rerun of a public vote..... How dare she? It's quite obvious that a change of opinion is in the air and it seems to be directed against Brexit and more pertinently, against the way it is being handled. This matter should never have been the responsibility of one party, I have argued against that consistently. It may be that this opinion is now gaining ground.
I heard the man who helped to write Article 50 on Broadcasting House yesterday and he said that the mechanism is simple. just write a letter to the EU cancelling the request to leave. The EU will welcome that and we shall be back where we were apart from the functions we have lost already. Compare that with best case if it goes forward..... This is a no-brainer and all that is stopping it is rabid right wing Little Englanders inside and outside politics. The Tories are talking now openly about a choice between Johnson and Rees-Mogg as leader, how long can this madness carry on? For that is what it is, bigoted xenophobic madness fuelled by dreams of a lost empire. Sovereignty in their terms is an illusion. Look at what is happening in Argentina, what happens when the Pound Sterling starts to be discounted on global markets? There is no such thing as independent sovereignty under the modern system of capitalism, only cooperation with others to form strong trading blocks.
I have been around for a long while and I have never seen anything as bad as this.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 20 Aug 2018, 08:08

In the Attention thread I've provided a link to `Our Future, Our Choice' (OFOC) LINK. Here's a another movement for a second vote:
`Brexit vote campaign gets £1m from Superdry co-founder'
`One of the co-founders of the fashion label Superdry has donated £1m to the campaign for another EU referendum. Multi-millionaire Julian Dunkerton said he was backing the People's Vote campaign because "we have a genuine chance to turn this around". The People's Vote, a cross-party group including some MPs, want a public vote on the final Brexit deal.' LINK

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 21 Aug 2018, 04:05

Both are worthy projects and I wish them well Tiz but it's getting a bit late in the day.
See THIS BBC report of what the NHS is thinking about the possible consequences of a no-deal Brexit and looking at the vacillation and lack of any clear indications from Westminster, this gets more likely day by day.
I am sure there are other people out there like me who are absolutely incensed at the way the Tories have ignored common sense, reality and all the rules of good governance and got us into this mess. No need for any analysis, leaving aside the parallel inanities of austerity bearing on the poorest as the way to economic salvation. I say inanities because this is the only way I can describe it, they ignored all the basic rules of economics and favoured themselves and their rich supporters. Just concentrate on Brexit itself. One of the EU leaders observed early on in the process that the basic cause was a 'cat fight' in the Tory Party, absolutely correct. A weak PM, Cameron, took what he thought was the easy way to achieve unity, give the rabid drivers of the Party what they wanted, a way out of the EU and plunge us into even deeper trouble.
Over the years I have taken the trouble to learn as much as possible about the basic facts of politics in Britain. During the course of this I have come to the conclusion that the key to real prosperity is investment in education, narrowing the income gap and strict adherence to principles of equality. All the history I have read has taught me that time and time again, the block to progress along these lines has been the self-interest of the wealthiest section of the population and their creed has always been Tory principles.
I'll stop, this becomes a rant but it's based on deep research and a lot of thought. High time for some sort of a change. At the moment, Britain is broken.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 21 Aug 2018, 06:11

Later..... Figures due this morning are expected to show a fall in public spending which will be seen by the Tories as 'a good thing'. Not surprising really that spending is down to 2001 levels, they have cut everything! Note that at the same time the total National Debt has soared.
See THIS report on domestic debt to see who is paying for this 'improvement'. This is the economics of the madhouse.
See also THIS BBC report on the latest blue skies initiative by the Tories. Liam Fox says that we will become an exporting super power. So that's all right then. Pity that this is 'in the long run'. None of this affects the fact that a bad Brexit is going to produce immediate damage but this isn't the message the Tories want to advertise.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 Aug 2018, 05:42

Brexit remains an enigma......
The big news this morning is the guilty verdicts against Paul Mannefort and Cohen, Trump's campaign manager and Cohen his personal lawyer. Cohen in particular has testified that Trump colluded with him on the matter of bribing women to drop attacks on him alleging sexual abuse. This is a clear violation of campaign funding and he is desperate to testify to the other Muller enquiry to reduce a 60 year sentence with no parole that he faces.
Trump has not commented but I think we can assume that this has got his attention.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 Aug 2018, 08:02

I see Jeremy Hunt, remember him as the man who spent the last six year saving our NHS from creeping privatization, now as Foreign Secretary is calling for more sanctions on Russia. Link.. I see this as no more than toadying up to Trump and getting in his good books for when we crash out of the EU. After all we have this special agreement? with America don't we?
Russia is now being blamed for cyber interference in the coming American elections. ie: Rule one, find an enemy to divert attention, when caught with you hand in someones pocket shout thief and point at someone else. All this spying business is not cricket especially when someone tries to kill our spies that used to be their spies. We are now in a position to prove categorically that the russians tried to poison Skripel and his daughter but just for now we are keeping it quiet and not telling people how we know.

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