POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 08 Oct 2019, 09:55

I couldn't resist re-quoting our posts from 5th September... :smile:
Tizer wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 11:39
Tripps, when you have a spare few minutes put down the popcorn, switch off the TV and nip down to Tesco. Search the aisles for The Fragrant Heidi and ask her if she's going to do like Luciana Berger and join the LibDems! :smile:
Tripps wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 17:58
Tizer wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 11:39
ask her if she's going to do like Luciana Berger and join the LibDems!
It'll be interesting to see what she does next. Will she stand here? I doubt it. A new Tory candidate has stepped in, and looks to tick boxes. There is also a new Lib Dem candidate.
If she was going to re - tergiversate, (so much scope to use this word at the moment :smile: ) I think she'd have done it by now. Still - she's a qualified astrophysicist, and experienced manager, and Tesco are recruiting again so she'll be OK. :smile:
I think she may have to do remedial English before presenting her CV though -
from twitter today
An executive which lies, has no majority and plays lose and fast with the livelihoods of our constituents and the country’s future. I don’t think so.
It's all got very exciting now. I suppose it's reached the stage where the excitement begins to outweigh the anxiety over the outcome. Like the point when astronauts hear the final countdown and know that there's no going back, we're on our way....to somewhere! :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 08 Oct 2019, 10:13

Tizer wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 09:55
It's all got very exciting now. I suppose it's reached the stage where the excitement begins to outweigh the anxiety over the outcome.
I think we've reached the 'lie back and think of England' stage? :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 08 Oct 2019, 10:16

Yes, especially when you take into account Trump's impending implosion now that even the Republican Party are getting worried about him.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Oct 2019, 02:28

What struck me in the midst of all the babble was the briefing from Number Ten to the Telegraph. Universally agreed that this was Dominic Cummings running the country. You know what my opinions are about that.
Listened to Grant Shapps on Today giving the Party Line. Political discourse has reached nadir. [Checked my usage... "John Donne is first on record as having used nadir in the figurative sense of "lowest point" in a sermon he wrote in 1627." So that's all right!]
Does the combined Opposition lie back in the face of today's prorogation or are we about to have an interesting day?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 09 Oct 2019, 08:23

Parliament shuts down for another week. Johnson's thinking is that keeping the crusty MP's from asking questions would be to his advantage. The main problem with this is that it leaves a void where the media has to fill in the space with whatever they can get their hands on. On Brexit its becoming clear that Johnson's proposals are a total non-starter. Like a dancer with one foot up in the air when the music stops the EU has the advantage of saying its complete rubbish so back to you. Meanwhile the World wide economy is on a downward trend. Trade with everybody is going to get more difficult and more expensive just when we are pulling the plug on one of our biggest trading partners and Trump is throwing his toys out of his pram threatening everybody with sanctions and extra import duties. Going for a general election with this background may not be the straightforward calculation that Johnson has in mind.

You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 09 Oct 2019, 08:50

Today's bit of action could be in Scotland....
`Three Scottish judges are due to announce later whether a court can sign a Brexit extension letter on behalf of the government. The Inner House of the Court of Session, Scotland's highest court, is being asked to act directly if Boris Johnson refuses to request a delay. The letter is a key provision of what is known as the Benn Act, by which MPs hope to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Lord Carloway said the judges will give their decision at 11:00 BST. The court also heard an appeal against a ruling that Mr Johnson can be trusted to apply the law.' [BBC News]

Another indication that Brexit is a bad idea...
`IMF boss Kristalina Georgieva warns of 'painful' Brexit' LINK
`The new head of the International Monetary Fund has warned that Brexit in whatever form will be "painful", adding to the effects of a global slowdown. Kristalina Georgieva said the split will hurt not only the UK and European Union, but also low income countries with economic ties to them...'

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 09 Oct 2019, 09:11

plaques wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 08:23
Parliament shuts down for another week.
You're joking? No, you couldn't make it up! Unbelievable.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 10 Oct 2019, 02:12

Exactly right P. You're as angry as I am.
Scottish Court is waiting to see what happens before the judgement.
Johnson is gradually being squeezed into a corner but I fear there are enough ignorant people to buy that only Parliament stopped the deal. What is happening is all electioneering and could work.....
I heard a Tory politician yesterday saying that the problem was that the EU didn't understand British politics. Of course they don't DUMMY! They are engaged with their own politics and on the whole aren't doing to bad! Illustrates the current thinking in the Party.
Just been listening to Philip Hammond on Today saying some very sensible things about the deal and the government's fiscal promises.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 10 Oct 2019, 07:49

The sad thing at the moment is the ongoing debate about whether Boris Johnson will obey parliament's 'Ben' law, This is not some down and out who regularly gets his collar felt but the Prime Minister of the UK. Of all the people in the land that should be trustworthy its our number one minister. Following close behind in this sad state of affairs are the MP's would appear to be actively encouraging him to ignore the law or to find some equally dubious mechanism like the emergency powers that will allow him to circumvent it. Not wishing to go down this road but this is how Adolf Hitler started on his climb to dictatorship. The 'remain' MP's must be really concerned otherwise why are they going to court to ensure he follows the law. All very worrying to say the least.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 10 Oct 2019, 08:47

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that some MPs think it's OK to ignore the law. After all, a majority of them ignored their responsibility to do what was in the best interests of `the people' three years ago when they signed off Article 50.

Stanley, It was Jeremy Hunt who said the problem was that the EU didn't understand British politics. The reality is that no-one understands British politics at the moment, not even the British government! :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 11 Oct 2019, 03:24

Tiz, Jeremy Hunt? Who he?
P dead right and don't be afraid to compare what is happening here to the fall of the Weimar Republic in Germany in the 1930s, it is directly analogous. What's the point of allowing the PC brigade to stifle us when we have a valid point. See THIS for an example of where care should be taken and retribution follow.
I can't help comparing Johnson with Trump. There are differences I know but a characteristic they both share is that they are both ignorant in their own ways in that they are selfish and believe that the end justifies the means. Johnson waffling about a deal when he really wants no deal and an election based on a false proposition that it was 'Parliament wot done it' and Trump asking what the Kurds did for us at Normandy in a lame defence against his betrayal of a nation that lost 10,000 lives doing the heavy lifting against ISIS are both good examples. In both cases the collateral damage is accepted as a price worth paying, largely because it isn't them who will pay that price.
The big question beyond Brexit is how we repair the damage that has been done and rebuild proper governance in this country. Post Brexit recovery is going to be at least as difficult as Post WW2.

Later, I remembered something I once heard attributed to the CEO of a company that made septic tanks. One of Johnson's favourite words is turd. The CEO said that in his business and also in life, the largest turds float to the top. In the case of Johnson and Trump this could well be definitive proof.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 11 Oct 2019, 09:27

Stanley wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 03:24
The big question beyond Brexit is how we repair the damage that has been done and rebuild proper governance in this country. Post Brexit recovery is going to be at least as difficult as Post WW2.
We also need to rebuild society by using better education to vaccinate against the populist virus. Also we have to deal with the `fake news' problem. Ian Hislop's TV programme `Fake News: A True History' is worth watching: LINK If you click the `More' button there's a long abstract on the page.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 11 Oct 2019, 10:58

Tizer wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 09:27
Also we have to deal with the `fake news' problem.
This is getting spooky. It has been running through my mind that what we saw in the past was blatant propaganda pushing their version of the 'news' through newspapers run by the state and later radio. Modern TV and the Web having not been invented. Stalin via 'Pravda (the Truth) and Hitler with Joseph Goebbels turning everything on its head with his mastery of propaganda. Of course we are above that sort of thing now-a-days, News papers are no longer state owned they are owned by a few billionaires who are pushing there own agenda. Social media is now in the hands off data collectors who can target individuals, brain wash in the old jargon, to see things their way. Arron Banks, reported wealth 100£m to 250 £m, now stating that his 'Kraut' twitter was unorthorised? Do these people have teams of people, mini Goebbels, pumping out tweets to further their personal, profitable, interests?
Is this what George Orwell meant with his Ministry of Truth? What can one believe indeed!

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 12 Oct 2019, 01:50

I watched Ian's programme Tiz. It was excellent as usual!
Listening to reactions yesterday grasping any straw in the wind that might mean a deal I was reminded of the advice always trotted out to investors, "If a deal looks too good to be true it almost certainly is!" If Johnson has changed a red line to get Leo Eric Varadkar on board he has almost certainly upset someone else and this spells a problem in getting Parliament to pass it, never mind the EU 27. This is no problem for Johnson as it reinforces his electoral rhetoric which is going to be it was the others who blocked me. At the moment it looks like another Unicorn....
P, "Do these people have teams of people, mini Goebbels, pumping out tweets to further their personal, profitable, interests? "
Of course they do! Cameron had Lynton Crosby, Corbyn has Seumas Milne and Johnson has Dominic Cummings. No low tactic is left unused! Remember Gove's attack dogs who tweeted anonymously on his behalf? All part of the sham which is current politics.
Incidentally in another part of the forest I heard an ex-director of the US Intelligence community talking about how Trump could get Syria so wrong. He was asked where the Spads were. His response was that the advisers who were sensible and moderate had been culled and their replacements were yes men. In addition he said that Trump was so unstable in his policies that he ignored all advice anyway if it didn't fit his opinion.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 12 Oct 2019, 09:02

I'm still sticking to my original 2016 prediction that safely and sensibly leaving the EU will prove impossible in practice. It was a barmy idea in the first place and it's no wonder we've ended up in such a mess. :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 13 Oct 2019, 02:58

I hope you are right Tiz. Leaving aside the reputational damage and the cost of allowing normal governance to cease, what has the last three years cost us in monetary terms? Truly Cameron's Catastrophe.
I had to smile yesterday when I saw a LibDem MP being asked a question about why Corbyn was anathema to her party. After trotting out the usual Marxist accusations she added "Mind you, he does have an allotment!"
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 13 Oct 2019, 10:22

Although I'm not a populist or anarchist I do find that my opinion of our politicians in recent years has fallen dramatically. I'm not talking about minor aberrations but major examples of an awful lack of good judgement. Brexit is obviously at the front of my mind but there are others. For example, changing motorway hard shoulders into traffic lanes. It's taken deaths and injuries to bring the politicians around to seeing they've made a mistake and they're now proposing to change them back. The de-regulation of pensions was another.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 14 Oct 2019, 02:54

I can understand why you should think that Tiz. I find I can forgive the occasional cock-up when a well-meant policy threw up an unintended consequence but if expert advice was ignored or the policy was for some unscrupulous reason like self-promotion or worse prompted the 'reform' in the first place I have no mercy on the perpetrator. That's why I hate what Cameron did. He never admits in his memoir that what led to the referendum was the fact he was a weak leader. Instead of cracking down on the rabid right wing of the party he pandered to them and hoped it would all turn out all right. He ditched his personal opinion and any principles he had and made a massive mistake. In days yet to come Brexit will take its place in the pantheon of Tory cock-ups alongside the Poll Tax as an excuse for why the party lost popularity. I firmly believe this but am not sure if I will live to see the end of this Greek Tragedy. Mean while....
In another part of the forest... Trump gets deeper and deeper into the mire as the consequences of his bad judgement and cupidity come home to roost. Leaving Impeachment aside, latest reports are that Erdowan is aiming for more than a buffer zone, he is setting his sights on a higher goal, grabbing territory off Syria. This is a tragedy and threatens to, yet again, engulf the Middle East in all out war.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 14 Oct 2019, 08:49

Yes, we could end up with NATO bombing NATO, the UK ditching the EU, and the US oscillating between total isolation and unpredictable interference. In the meantime Russia makes a `soft' takeover of the Middle East and Africa - they are now beating the Chinese at the game of sneaky domination in the economies of African countries.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 15 Oct 2019, 03:41

What a wonderful Alice in Wonderland world we inhabit.
I listen to Tory spokespersons bigging up the Queen's Speech and wonder what stimulants they are on. This from a party with a -46 'majority'! Do we need any more evidence that our system of governance is broken?
I have ordered le Carre's new book. I heard him being interviewed yesterday about the thinking behind it and his main point was that as long as we have the hegemony of an 'Establishment' buttressed by an unequal education and honours systems we will find it impossible to effect real reform. Meanwhile the populists and even worse, the nationalists, fill the vacuum, to the detriment of us all. I thought he made sense.
As for Syria.... One early morning tweet by a deranged President leads to a situation where all factions seem to be supporting each other and at the same time attacking their personal enemies. Our frequently employed phrase "You couldn't have made it up!" fits perfectly. Only one word describes this; chaos.
(It gives a whole new meaning to the infamous phrase 'Friendly Fire'.)
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Oct 2019, 04:58

There is no political news of note. We are in stasis and know nothing beyond the vapid comments being made by politicians to try to cheer us up.
One thing that strikes me is that even if 'The Deal' emerges, will it get through the Commons?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 16 Oct 2019, 09:13

The i newspaper is using the lull in Brexit news to tell us more about the PFI farce...
`Billions being spent on wasteful legacy PFI contracts across the country, new investigation shows' LINK
`Taxpayers are shelling out billions of pounds in wasteful payments under controversial private finance initiative contracts that have locked hospitals, schools and police forces in the iron grip of contractors, it can be revealed. One hospital trust has paid more than £5,500 for a new sink, and a school has been charged more than £25,000 for three parasols, according to figures obtained by JPI Media Investigations, while a police force paid £884 for a chair. Extra costs and rocketing inflation are set to add nearly £5bn to the overall price tag of PFI schemes, according to figures obtained from hundreds of public bodies....'.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 16 Oct 2019, 21:40

Stanley wrote:
16 Oct 2019, 04:58
One thing that strikes me is that even if 'The Deal' emerges, will it get through the Commons?
Bearing in mind, the way forward to a deal is a narrow path with red lines leading to a tunnel with hurdles and numerous obstacles not forgetting climbing Everest with its ups and downs. All pretty straight forward really.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Oct 2019, 02:12

Image

Image

Thanks to PE.
In case you were wondering, no deal at 03:00.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 17 Oct 2019, 08:10

Well the DUP have taken their bat home so that's that.

In another part of the forest "veteran" Labour Party member Dame Louise Joyce Ellman has quit the party. She has jumped before being pushed having lost a confidence vote by her own Constituency members. She confuses support for oppressed and disenfranchised nations as anti Semitism.
Ian

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