POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 04 Nov 2019, 23:36

Age of majority should be 16

Do away with first past the post in favour of some form of PR

Abandon the Westminster refurbishment white elephant and the gladitorial "us and them" accross the chamber model. Replace with a purpose built centre of government in the middle of the country adjacent to all the transport links.

Introduce compulsory voting.
[/quote]

I think I am in general agreement.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 05 Nov 2019, 03:17

Levido is news to me Tiz, thanks for the link. Didn't May have an attack dog advising her?
I agree about Farage. When I heard him say "no Brexit without the Brexit Party" I thought "Hello, he might have a point there!".
Glad to see a sensible choice for the new Speaker. Sir Lindsay Hoyle has had 9 years experience and is a moderate bloke but forceful. Could be a good and perhaps surprising choice. I have a feeling he could be harder on bad behaviour than Bercow but not as flamboyant. More bollocking in private and less on the floor?
Johnson and selective reporting... Watch him like a hawk, he is a walking time bomb.
In general. I am feeling more optimistic about the GE. Farage has got it wrong and Johnson has walked into a trap I reckon. Headline writers will be working on the sound bites just in case. 'Corbyn's Cubs'?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 05 Nov 2019, 07:46

Tripps, I'm shocked I tell you :laugh5: I remembered my little faux pas when I was writing my last post, but you did say that it was your last word on the subject :biggrin2:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 05 Nov 2019, 08:48

Stanley wrote:
05 Nov 2019, 03:17
Levido is news to me Tiz, thanks for the link. Didn't May have an attack dog advising her?
Mrs May's advisors were Nicholas James Timothy CBE (born March 1980) is a British political adviser. He served as Joint Downing Street Chief of Staff, alongside Fiona Hill, to Prime Minister Theresa May, until his resignation in the wake of the 2017 general election. A secondary team from Australia headed by Crosby were to advise on election tactics. Crosby had a London based research group ,,CROSBY TEXTOR FULLBROOK SOLUTIONS LIMITED (CTF) One of his top men was Isaac Levido who was also added to the team. .

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 05 Nov 2019, 10:30

plaques wrote:
05 Nov 2019, 07:46
but you did say that it was your last word on the subject
I know, I know - but it was irresistible. :laugh5:
Born to be mild. . .

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 05 Nov 2019, 14:29

Watching parliament on its last sitting day. First time in ages that I've been impressed by their actions. Historical Institutional Abuse bill

They are rushing this bill through - all its stages in one day, and it will get Royal Assent tonight.

I am not fully aware of the detail, but the speeches I've heard are disturbing to say the least.

Well done those who facilitated this course of action, when only a few days ago it was reported that the bill would fall, on dissolution of this Parliament.

I think it's about compensation for victims - I suggest that the Catholic Church should get the bill.

PS. They've done it - Committee stage and Third Reading together took less than ten minutes !

Down point - I think they said the money would come from the existing block grant to N. Ireland.
Born to be mild. . .

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 05 Nov 2019, 23:07

Last line sounds like a slap to the DUP for not accepting BoJo's Brexit.

Cannot recall if Philip Hammond was on the list of MPs not standing , but he is not. As a Chancellor he has done as well as he could given the circumstances, in some ways I would have wanted him as chancellor in a Labour Govt with Blair as PM, it would have given a better balance of proper public expenditure without throwing everything around wether it was needed or not.

Jacob R-M on LBC raising the point of Grenfell Resident's having common sense to have left the building despite Fire Brigade advice to the contary. To some extent he is not as wrong as those railing against him make out (and I am no big fan of Jacob), but if they had there would still be an casualty toll - staircases not designed for the potential numbers of persons exiting at one time, toxic fumes from the insulation and plastic elements of the panelling , and Mr R-M would have been the first to condemn them if deaths had occured for disobeying authority ( and note many residents did not have english as a first language, and most Local Authority tenancies dont/did not come with a handbook of what to do in case of fire - the actual advice was always stay put unless the fire is endangering you if it is in the near vicinity. Grenfell itself was a little unusual , its all concrete construction with no external balconies was to avoid any repeat of the Ronan Point Collapse ( caused mainly by not adhereing to correct construction of the balconies in the first place), nor strangely recessed balconies ( there are smaller 4 flats per floor designs) in Stockwell that had an all Reinforced Concrete construction with external integral balaconies that are designed to act as a refuge point if there is a fire in the single internal stairwell - this only works really with the original (cold) metal critall windows, adding PVCu windows that dont have fire retardent aditives in seem to be causing some vertical flame spread if there is too little solid material verticals - we have had a fire on mum's estate where that has nearly happened recently. So Jeremy had better be careful how the 27million homes getting double glazing if Labour get a parliamentary majority are actually specified and fitted (and why not triple glazing ?)

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 06 Nov 2019, 03:03

I agree about the compensation bill David and yes, the Catholic Church should contribute. Did you know that in theory if they did it comes out of the bishop's back pocket as he is titular owner of all diocesan assets in the Catholic Church's management structure? A friend of mine who is a Jesuit Priest told me that. (He still wants to baptise me....)
Rees Mogg put his foot in it just as I was warning that Johnson was most likely to do so. He made the mistake of publicly interfering in private grief which is always a mistake and it doesn't matter a damn whether he was right or not. He wasn't there! Thoughtless and arrogant, one of the common traits of his ilk.
Have you noticed how the campaign is getting dirty and combative already?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 06 Nov 2019, 06:14

See THIS Times report that the Treasury civil servants have refused to give Sajid Javez a breakdown of Labour Spending plans on the grounds that civil servants can't interfere in elections. Javez is not amused.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 06 Nov 2019, 08:41

Whyperion's point about vertical flame spread is very important. My friend worked for a firm that made piping insulation, the kind that you buy at B&Q, try to set fire to it when held horizontal and it just smouldered. hold it vertically and it would catch fire. I'm pleased to say that they overcame the problem. The flats as initially designed would not be faced with this problem therefore the fire service advice was probably correct but add cladding with this vertical fire potential and the picture changes. Who is at fault for the wrong instructions I will leave for the authorities to sort out.

Rees Mogg's comments about using common sense should be borne in mind when the elite Tory MPs talk about crashing out on Brexit.

In the 2017 Mrs May's snap election the Tory party actually broke the 'purdah' rules by asking the civil service for some election details. Not a big transgression but it happens from time to time.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 06 Nov 2019, 09:32

Surely all proposals should ideally be independently costed for cost and likely revenue and the impact in the wider economy of those decisions. What Javez wanted costed were earlier Labour ideas and conference etc suggestions, which may not be in the actual manifesto pledges hence costing them for the election would be wrong. On Grenfell R-M Should have been reminded, that like it or not, the Fire Service were criticised in the initial report for a number of communications failures, some technical, some in terms of the content , in part some of the event could be attributed to BoJo's time as London Mayor and decisions on centralising / regionalising Fire Service control centres, I would not want to scapegoat any individual fire officer, and they have learned that a number of changes and implementations need to be made and I think will see it through if properly assessed and financed, until the next unpredictable major event.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 06 Nov 2019, 11:50

plaques wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 08:41
Whyperion's point about vertical flame spread is very important.
Yes, very soon after the fire all the manufacturers of the polymer foam insulation added warnings to their literature and web pages that the material should not be used in walls of buildings above a specific height (I think it was 2 or 3 stories). I got the feeling that they already knew that its use above that height might be dangerous but hadn't didn't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

This story shows how misinformation on social media is generated and propogated...
`How a misleading story about Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson's husband went viral' LINK
`Misleading politics stories go viral online all the time. The action gets particularly frantic during an election campaign. This is the story of how one tale - involving Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson and her husband Duncan Hames - became one of the most-shared politics stories in the first few days of 2019's battle, with a potential audience of more than 1.5 million people. A BBC Trending investigation tracked down the people, from an Italian in North Wales to a barman in London, who exaggerated genuine facts and helped the story go viral via some of Britain's biggest political pages and groups on Facebook. Multiple versions of the story exist, many with different details. But the false allegation at the core is the same: that Ms Swinson's husband personally benefits from European Union funds and this is the main reason why she is against Brexit...'.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 07 Nov 2019, 03:51

Politics got even more interesting yesterday by the Secretary of State for Wales resigning after THIS hit the news. The judge threw Ross out of court saying he had sabotaged the trial and the friend he was lying for was convicted of rape. Cairns claimed he knew nothing but a leaked email shows a SPAD warned him over a year ago but he ignored it. All very messy and not the best start to the Tory campaign.
On the rhetoric. Does Johnson think that Joe Public knows or even cares about Joe Stalin liquidating the Kulaks?
Later, Tory activists were trying to divert attention by homing in on Tom Watson's resignation as deputy party leader and candidate on Dec 12. Not directly comparable because whilst Watson has been displaying poor judgement of late he has not actually done anything wrong. I suspect Labour will on the whole welcome this on the quiet, it saves having to 'review' his role.
Today the focus of campaigning is to be the economy. Johnson has already said that a vote for Labour is a vote against the 'economic progress' of the last ten years. This is totally untrue. The 'economy' he refers to is the cutting of government spending by cutting welfare and public services to the point where many areas are actually being deprived (usually on the grounds that it's a 'local government responsibility'.)
Meanwhile, the economic performance of PLC UK has tanked. Consumption has fallen as austerity has bitten. Manufacturing is at it's lowest since before 2008. Investment in industry has stalled and all the real life indicators like business closure and failure and spending and borrowing levels, even use of food banks, point the same way. Downwards. Add in the fact that all the forecasts left and right wing agree that Brexit will cost us money, the only differences are the time and degree and the overall picture is that the enemy of the economy is the government and guess where that evidence trail leads. That's right, to those masters of finance, the Tories and their mates in the City who by the way are making a mint out of shorting the market and buying up assets for peanuts.
I shall stop ranting... But it's so depressing to see blatant lies like this being peddled as 'economic facts'.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 07 Nov 2019, 08:16

Johnson has just fired his first shot in the election campaign, 'Get Brexit Done' 'unleash Britain's potential' A better delivery than Maybot and has ditched the strong and stable approach to government, I wonder why? Very animated with lots of unrelated side issues peppered with his favorite tag line analogies. A typical Johnson performance but do we want a comedian as Prime Minister?.The main theme being..."When this Country is aching to move on, So lets make next year the year of prosperity and growth...and on day one of the new parliament we will start getting our new deal through so we get Brexit done in January..." All sounds like pied piper Johnson is leading the country to the dentist where we will leave with no teeth and a big bill to pay.
The majority of his speech was pure anti Corbyn inferring that he would lead the country to more delay and dither. Not a word about 10 years of Tory dithering or austerity just wrap yourself in the flag and follow me. Hopefully the manifesto when it emerges will tell us how the mechanics of this economic miracle is going to happen.

For those willing to undergo 40 minutes of pain, watch..Brexit Done.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 07 Nov 2019, 08:19

Exactly P. Let's hope that Joe Public has more oil in his can than Johnson thinks and sees through the flim flam!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 07 Nov 2019, 09:20

I noticed the media were calling into question the timing of Tom Watson's resignation and inferring that it was timed to do maximum damage to JC. The fact of the matter is he is not contesting his seat so there has to be time to select another candidate for his constituency. It's simple logistics of the election procedure.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 07 Nov 2019, 11:04

I became increasingly worried that UK politics was shifting towards the two extremes of left and right. Now there's a new opportunity being created - that shift is opening up the middle ground for the moderates to fill.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 08 Nov 2019, 03:23

Yes Tiz, but I wonder if the deals and manipulation shenanigans we are seeing are going to be as effective as they evidently hope they will. The voters are a lot more conservative (Note small 'c'!) than they believe. I suspect most don't follow any political output. I tend to think that this election is entirely in predictable and the balance of eventual opinion will not tend to hard right.
The thing that struck me yesterday listening to the arguments over the economy led me to the conclusion that Sajid Javez needs to do a course in Economics 101. McDonnell is right in that we need to have a massive shift and of the two I'd rather back his scale of borrowing and investment. The reason why it is so enormous is that we have had 10 years of retrenchment and that can't be fixed in five minutes. I have argued for all those ten years for a Keynesian approach of deficit financed management on the grounds that which was got us through the 'impossible' task of financing WW2. Austerity was a massive mistake and some of the finest economists in the world agree with me.
One small warning example from history though, and this was raised by several sensible commentators yesterday. When the 'Addison' Housing act was brought in after the Great War amid fears of revolution if 'Homes Fit For Heroes' was ignored house building was held back because the materials, labour and infrastructure weren't there to press ahead as fast as was planned. That is almost certainly the case now, we have neglected the base and lost many elements needed to properly utilise investment on the scale that is proposed. This could be the Achilles Heel of the plan.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 08 Nov 2019, 12:43

Just to remind people what happened in the referendum voting in Pendle the figures were 63.2% leave and 36.8% remain. the full list can be found here. Referendum in Lancashire.
Our MP Mr Andrew Stephenson has never made it a secret that he is in the leave camp. He is also in favor of leaving without a deal. Andrew Stephenson voted to leave the European Union on the 12th of April 2019 without a withdrawal agreement.Voting record.
I make no comment about why people voted as they did or offer an explanation why Mr Stephenson thinks how he does.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 08 Nov 2019, 13:10

plaques wrote:
08 Nov 2019, 12:43
I make no comment about why people voted as they did
I voted only because it was a national rather than constituency type referendum, and my vote, despite living in a remain area, would still have a small effect nationally.

Goodness knows what I'll do in the forthcoming General Election. I have my posters ready for the window. :smile:

1. Vote Heidi Allen Conservative. Blue From last time.
2. Vote Heidi Allen Liberal Democrat Yellow.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 08 Nov 2019, 19:54

Tripps wrote:
08 Nov 2019, 13:10
Goodness knows what I'll do in the forthcoming General Election. I have my posters ready for the window. :smile:

1. Vote Heidi Allen Conservative. Blue From last time.
2. Vote Heidi Allen Liberal Democrat Yellow.
Or as it's a General Election, vote for policies rather than an individual who can't make her mind up.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Nov 2019, 03:32

Ian is right of course David but why not put them all up? That would make a subtle but important point!
I applaud the fact that up to press, all the comments I have heard from leading Labour speakers, whist attacking the Tories, are reasonable and moderate. This contrasts with the Tories and their media allies who are going for the Stalin/Trotsky line remorselessly.
The new tag line for the Tories has changed from 'strong and stable' to 'oven ready deal'.
I heard a comment about Johnson's election start rally being awfully like Trump, bands and all.
It didn't work for Kinnock!
Later, listening to Matt Hancock promising thousands of new GPs. How the hell can he promise that when it takes 7 Years + to train just one. Has he got a box full somewhere? They have promised this year on year and it's not happened, in fact the number has fallen since 2010. 'Safe in our hands'?
Did you notice Johnson stating in Ireland that trade from Ireland to mainland Britain could throw the forms away. This is not true of course and it has raised doubts about how well he understands his own 'Oven Ready' Deal.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 09 Nov 2019, 08:28

Johnson's 'Get Brexit Done' doesn't say what type of Brexit he is talking about. He mentions his fantastic deal as though it is a done deal in that all MPs have agreed to it where the truth is that they have only agreed to debate it. Depending on what kind of amendments that could be bolted on the deal it could be stopped in its tracks or withdrawn altogether. Johnson would then be in a position to crash out which is something he has been aiming for since 2017. A no deal withdrawal has been described as a car crash while others liken it to a motorway pile up. As it stands the one of the main preparation features of a no deal situation is to use the motorways as a lorry park. Well done Mr Gove. Now that Moggmomentum has sunk under the waves because he didn't use his common sense Gove has now taken hold of the helm with a lead statement that the country doesn't want two more referendums, Scottish and Brexit, the truth being the Tories don't want these referendums because the may reverse the mistakes of the first ones.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Nov 2019, 08:37

I agree with all of that P. Isn't it a bloody mess and don't let's forget the history of this, a weak Tory PM trying to govern a party being ripped apart by rabid right wingers aiming for a regression to the good old days of the 19th century. Then keeping all decisions internal and not consulting anyone, especially the EU! You can't think of an opportunity for manufacturing a disaster that they have missed.
To quote the current 'in-word', it's a cock up of biblical proportions.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 09 Nov 2019, 09:32

plaques wrote:
08 Nov 2019, 12:43
Just to remind people what happened in the referendum voting in Pendle the figures were 63.2% leave and 36.8% remain. the full list can be found here. Referendum in Lancashire.
]
I make no comment about why people voted as they did .
I wonder if the asian population did not vote in the referendum, they might in the general election, but the quantity of low paid/ no paid people in the relatively poor quality council/housing pendle properties from Nelson / Colne and northwards dont to me seem inclined to identify with labour policies or people. Johnson has tapped the 10% populatist nerve that was going to Farage, and no amount of facts seem to shift misguided opinion, but will the top end of leave moderate tories flip to the LD and actually give a closer election race this time round - maybe.

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