FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2020, 07:34

That doesn't ring a bell Wendy, it was sixty years ago......
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 29 Jun 2020, 07:41

Worth a try!

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2020, 08:03

It's on the tip of my tongue, happen it'll come to me.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 29 Jun 2020, 08:22

Do you have anything on Stocks, north of Bracewell? A medieval abandoned village, but I had folk living there 1800 - 1860.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Jun 2020, 03:22

Plenty Maz. Dial Stock Village into the site search engine. I have written a lot on it.

Image

Stock Village in 1717. At that date it still had the medieval field system and was in fact more important than Barlick. This is true in the Domesday Book as well, look it up! As late as the 1850s there is evidence of two shop keepers in Stock in the trade directories and the first census and none in Bracewell itself. The most interesting fact about Stock is the way it died. Once there was a textile industry in Barlick and employment and wages for the whole family including the children it made sense to flit and basically that is what happened. The whole working population abandoned Stock and by 1900 it was a forgotten village, only a handful of farmers left and that is how it is today.
Here's something I wrote about it...

"STOCK
Very difficult to separate Stock from Bracewell so I’ll include it here. I’m always wary of relying on place names as hard evidence, the most they can do is give some clues. The English Place-name Society version of the name Stock is: Stoche 1086 DB. Stock(e) 1147-50, Yorkshire Charters 1471. Same spelling in various references ‘til 1657 and various spellings such as Stok, Stokke, Stoke. Probably Old English ‘stoc’ – ‘place’ possibly in the sense of dairy farm, outlying farmstead. In Stock there is Aynams Hill, ‘af-nam’ is generally taken to mean an detached part of an estate. The earliest reference found by EPNS for Monk Bridge is in a manuscript of 1771. There is no name marked for Monk Bridge on the 1717 estate map by Thomas Weddell.

Eilert Ekwall (Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names) Sows further confusion. Here’s what he has to say about it: OE stoc is found in the sense 'monastery, cell'. The original meaning 'place' is recorded in Orm c 1200 (i faderr stoke 'in a father's stead' &c.), and Symeon of Durham renders Wdestok by 'silvarum locus'. OE also had stocweard 'townsman' and stocwic as a variant of stoc. The meaning ‘monastery, cell' is a specialization of the meaning 'place'. Cf. STOW. Stoc is etymologically related to stow, styde. In pl. ns. a meaning such as 'holy place, monastery' is obvious in HALSTOCK, and it is probably found in some other names. BRADENSTOKE was a monastery, and there was a monastery, founded in the 10th cent., at TAVISTOCK. KEWSTOKE seems to contain a saint's name. BINDON Abbey Do is called Bindonestok 1236 Ch. A meaning 'meeting-place' is plausible in the hundred-names Redborn-stoke Bd, perhaps Winterstoke So. But these meanings cannot be assumed for the bulk of cases. Nor can stoc mean simply ‘place’ except in some special cases, as TOSTOCK, if that means 'look-out place'. STOKE alone is a very common pl. n., and many names now consisting of stoc and some other el. were originally Stoke. The fact that STOKE is such a common name indicates that the places so named were once dependent on some village or manor. This is corroborated by the fact that a good many names in -stoc have as first el. the name of a neighbouring Village. CALSTOCK and CHARDSTOCK are 3 miles distant from CALLINGTON and CHARD respectively. The names mean 'STOCK belonging to Callington (Chard)'. BASINGSTOKE is near - BASING, MEONSTOKE near MEON, PURTON STOCK near PURTON. NAVESTOCK is 9 miles from NAZEING, but may quite well have been an outlying farm belonging to Nazeing. The exact meaning of stoc may have varied, but the probability is that it was generally 'cattle-farm, dairy-farm'. This is indicated by the name POUNDSTOCK, which has as first el. the word pound 'fold'. STOKENHAM was formerly also Hurdestoke (1198 Cur) -stoc of the flock or of the cowherds'.

The first el. of names in -stoc is often a Pers. n., as AD-, FRITHEL-, HADSTOCK, sometimes a tribal name, as COSTOCK, or a common noun, as BRIG-, LAVERSTOCK, or a river-name or some other pl. n., as GREYSTOKE, TAWSTOCK.

As a first el. stoc is probably often to be assumed rather than stocc. Many STOCKTON; (STAUGHTONS, STOUGHTONS) are probably Stoc-tun. Stoughton Sr is opposite to Stoke. Stoc is certainly the first el. of STOCKLAND, STOCKLINCH, STOCKSFIELD, STOCKWOOD, STOKESLEY.

The form of the element is mostly Stoke, -stoke. But the uninflected form stoc would give Stock, -stock, a form sometimes found. In early sources Stoke often appears in the plural form Stokes, showing that the OE form was in many cases stocu plur. STOKEHAM represents the dat. plur. OE stocum.

OE stocc 'stock, trunk of a tree' is a far rarer pl. n. el. than stoc, and can as a rule easily be distinguished from it. As a second el. it is found in WARSTOCK. STOCK (from. Stocc) alone occurs as a pl. n., perhaps in the sense 'foot-bridge'. As a first el. stocc is fairly common, and also a derivative stoccen 'made of stocks' occurs.

So, take your pick!  A detached farm, a monkish cell or a footbridge.  As for the hamlet of Stock itself, I can offer one or two concrete facts.  From the evidence it seems to have been regarded as part of the Manor of Bracewell.   In Domesday (1085/86) 'Stoche' is mentioned under the tenant Archil.  Notice that this use of the name is almost certainly the original pre-Conquest Saxon name and this was long before any record of monastic activity in Barnoldswick.  The map of 1717 showing the common fields seems to indicate that all the land at that time was worked by both Bracewell and Stock tenants, all part of the Bracewell Estate which seems to coincide with the boundary of the manor.  Whilst Stoche was dealt with separately in the Domesday it seems to have been or became an outlier of Bracewell.  Stock as a village was a viable unit until the mid 19th century.  Baines for 1822 records two shopkeepers there; John Carr and Christopher Hornby.  The 1851 census reports James Howarth farming 155 acres. Sarah Edmondson, pauper. Margaret Clark, HLW.  John Broughton, builder.  Henry Watson, ag. labourer.  Christopher Waite, farming 75 acres.  William Edmondson farming 42 acres.  All the evidence points to the village becoming depopulated by migration to Barnoldswick with the rise of employment and economic activity in Barnoldswick.

Back to the original point which was the origin of the name 'Stock'.  I think the crucial pointer could be the fact that the name existed before any monastic activity.  Remember that a third of Craven was laid waste in the post-Conquest rebellions.  It was not until this destruction and depopulation took place that the area became attractive to the Cistercians.  They liked to move into areas where there was no opposition.  Indeed, the name Stoche existed before the Cistercian Order was founded.  My feeling is that the fact that it was an outlier of Bracewell is the key and therefore the name is most likely to be derived from 'outlying dairy farm'.  I was tempted by footbridge briefly but then remembered that there was no bridge on Hall Lane which connects Stock to Bracewell, it is a paved ford and there is no evidence of it ever being anything else.  The footbridge that crosses the beck is modern.  So, until anyone convinces me differently I'll stick with the outlier.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 30 Jun 2020, 04:15

Thank you.
I see my Margaret Clark there with HLW next to it. What does HLW mean?

Ahhhh...think I have solved my own question. I see she was listed as a Hand Loom Weaver on a couple of Census entries.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Jun 2020, 04:39

:good:
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 30 Jun 2020, 05:24

:laugh5: ( better than “Having Little Wits” )

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Jun 2020, 05:28

Very often you'll find 'de lain' in brackets after HLW and that means wool weaver, silk and flax or linen are self-explanatory.All others you can assume that they are almost always cotton.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 01 Jul 2020, 04:57

Whenever we think of textiles in this are cotton is the dominant fibre. The only exceptions in modern times I have found is that Slater Brothers at Clough experimented with other fibres during the Cotton Famine, John Slater had an interest in a silk mill at Galgate near Lancaster. I think Blyn and Blyn spun wool in later days on mules at Calf Hall Shed.
Before 1800 the universal fibre was wool and in those days there was a Cloth Hall at Colne where merchants took in woven woollen broadcloth and supplied raw wool to the domestic textile industry. Before the Cloth Hall that was the province of the local clothiers who imported wool mainly from Lincolnshire. We have the diaries Ambrose Barcroft, a clothier and farmer in Barrowford for evidence, I shall bump it.
Occasionally you'll come across references to silk and flax but they are very rare.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 02 Jul 2020, 05:20

Image

The clock that Johnny Pickles made in 1937 for Riley Street Chapel in Earby as a memorial to his old Master, Henry Brown. When the chapel was demolished he took the clock back and installed it in the frontage of the Wellhouse shop of Henry Brown Sons and Pickles. Notice he retained a Brown connection even though the firm was his.

Image

The shop in 1978.

Image

When the shop was demolished in 1981, Jack Gissing, who had bought the business moved the clock to his office in Wellhouse Road. He was one of Johnny's apprentices.

Image

Here it is in the lobby.
All this is old news to those who have followed my history of B&P but what brought it to mind this morning is that the only public clocks in Barlick that are keeping correct time are the ones that Johnny made for Riley Street, Trinity church and St Joseph's EC church. The Millennium clock in Town square has been half and hour slow since a power outage about nine months ago, the clock on the bus shelter on Station Road has been four and a half ours out of sync for as long as I can remember. I asked David Whipp what the situation was and he told me that the Town Council had tried all the tricks open to them but none of them have worked. They are trying to get the makers back to them but no joy as yet. I can't help thinking that Johnny would be quietly amused at the failure of modern technology. It appears that accurate modern clocks using radio controlled technology aren't as reliable as his turret clocks so we can chalk this up as a forgotten corner.
When I was doing the LTP Horace Thornton once told me that he was verger at Carleton church and Johnny turned up one day to look at the clock. He was interested in it because it's very old and was made by a local farmer. Horace told me that when Johnny had a close look at the mechanism he said it was well made considering the technology of the day and the fact it was made by an amateur. Most interesting of all to me is that he told Harold that it was the earliest use of a free wheel that he had ever seen in a turret clock, Johnny knew about these matters and so you get two forgotten corners for the price of one!

Image

The Carleton clock mechanism in 2012 after being repaired following a stoppage of 18 months.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 03 Jul 2020, 03:55

One of the first civilisations in the world to have a dedicated corps of public administrators, a 'civil service', was the Chinese. I once read that the entrance examination for the service was perpetual, it was always open to entrants. All they had to do was write down everything they knew, as simple and as complicated as that.
I look at the world of politics and public service today and wonder where we went wrong. The biggest faults I see are incompetence and inconsistency. I suspect that the Chinese were at least as efficient as we are given the disparity in technology between then and now.
This could be today's forgotten corner.
I got another piece of information from the same source. The medical profession in ancient China was very advanced for the time and was well regulated. What grabbed me was the system of payment, you paid the doctor a small amount while you were well (and could afford it), as soon as you became ill you stopped paying. The reasoning behind this was that you were paying the doctor to maintain you in good health and when you fell ill he had failed. Very similar to the way the NHS runs so perhaps not a forgotten corner!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 04 Jul 2020, 03:40

Tomorrow is the 72nd birthday of the NHS. I'm old enough to remember when it started and what a difference it made. The change wasn't immediate, it took a while to bed down but when it happened, what a change it was. By coincidence(?) the book of the week at 09:45 on R4 has been 'The Boy with two hearts' (LINK) A heart warming story and illustrates what a boon the NHS has been to us all. One of the few good things to come out of the pandemic is renewed focus on what a magnificent concept free health care is in a society. Hence it isn't a forgotten corner but we should all make sure that it never will be by supporting the service whenever we can.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 04 Jul 2020, 05:12

How do you support a free service? ( do you mean via charity shops?)

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by plaques » 04 Jul 2020, 07:41

Marilyn wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 05:12
How do you support a free service? ( do you mean via charity shops?)
I suppose the first question is 'who pays for the charity shop'? In most cases the 'goods' are given free and the majority of the staff work for free but after that there are hidden costs that someone is paying for. Even food banks where the 'goods' are given away has background costs. The NHS is free at the point of delivery but the costs are picked up by everybody. In the more enlightened world they call it socialism in America where profit is king they call it communism.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 04 Jul 2020, 08:26

I am still trying to clarify the comment “ supporting them whenever you can”. How DO you support a free service?
I am off for a mammogram in a fortnight...a free service here...but I can’t think how I can “support” them. They do not ask for donations or any support.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 04 Jul 2020, 08:52

Mammograms are free over here Maz as is Cervical screening and any other tests and treatment you could care to think of. We can all support the NHS by helping them to provide an efficient service whether this is by not going to A&E with a bruised finger or supporting their ongoing calls for decent pay grades across the healthcare sector. This pandemic has clearly shown who are the ones in our society who deserve a decent wage for the work they do. That's how you support a free service.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by plaques » 04 Jul 2020, 08:53

How DO you support a free service? If we accept that it is structured to be free at the point of delivery and we are happy with the way it is structured. ie: a socialist service, we would be supporting it by saying "keep your sticky capitalist fingers away" . From what we have seen is that introducing a 'privatised' element into the system generally degrades its performance. This is something Aneurin Bevan fought hard to prevent when he first introduced the concept of the NHS. Ever since this time people have been nibbling away at the edges cherry picking the bits that can make a profit but leaving the open ended bits for the public purse to pick up.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 04 Jul 2020, 09:12

We have a “private” healthcare system running alongside the “public” health system. You may think that is a choice, but it isn’t. If you earn over £20 k a year here, you must pay into a private system. If you don’t, you will be taxed to the point you should have paid anyway, without access to private care.
I have never been offered a mammogram under the private health. I suspect you would, if you presented with a breast lump or any other breast concern. Otherwise, you just get your free one every two years ( a bit like windscreen replacement under your car policy) :biggrin2: so this is really for women who do not have any problems they are concerned of. Interestingly, it took me 16 mins on my mobile phone to book my free mammogram, that will take less than 5 mins to perform.
We get free bowel screening every 2 years too, but that is a kit you get in the post and sent back for free the same way.

I feel obliged to do both, because it comes under the heading “taking care of yourself”. And so little is free in this life, one would be a mug not to do it.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 04 Jul 2020, 09:23

Marilyn wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 09:12
We get free bowel screening every 2 years too, but that is a kit you get in the post and sent back for free the same way.
We get to play Poo Sticks as well Maz and I have had an Aorta Scan, that one has now been added to the free tests for us a we get older. Anyone over 65 can apply for that if they have just missed the boat for when it was introduced.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Tizer » 04 Jul 2020, 09:29

Marilyn wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 08:26
I am still trying to clarify the comment “ supporting them whenever you can”. How DO you support a free service?
Our hospitals usually have ways you can support them by contributing money, time and effort to ease the load on the medics so they can concentrate on doing their main job.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 04 Jul 2020, 09:35

:surprised: I would not qualify for an Aortic Scan :geek: being younger than 65.
I am only 60.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by plaques » 04 Jul 2020, 09:49

I believe in Australia they buy their drugs by collective negotiation to get better discounts on bulk purchases. The NHS does similar deals for the majority of their drugs. The noises coming from the proposed trade deals between the UK and America is to stop discount purchasing and make the NHS pay the full retail price as the Americans do with their own private services. This would be a bonanza time for the American pharmaceutical companies and another nail in the coffin for the NHS. Safe in their hands? I think not.

Slight correction on Aortic scans. They are available if your doctor thinks you may have a need for one. You can't self demand a scan just because you have attained the over 65 range.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Marilyn » 04 Jul 2020, 09:59

Since hubby has qualified for cheaper drugs, he gets so confused that they change shape/colour/ packaging so often. I have to sit beside him and talk him through the changes, reading the packets and telling him they are the same drugs. I can understand how it gets confusing for some. He really struggles with it.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 04 Jul 2020, 10:53

plaques wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 09:49
Slight correction on Aortic scans. They are available if your doctor thinks you may have a need for one. You can't self demand a scan just because you have attained the over 65 range
Sorry Ken but you are incorrect. From the information I have, when I was called for mine the letter was worded thus:

"I am writing to invite you to attend a screening appointment. Abdominal aortic aneurysm screening (also called AAA screening) is offered free of charge by the NHS to all men during their 65th year."


My letter was accompanied by a Public Health England information leaflet about the procedure and what to expect etc. It is entitled " Abdominal aortic aneurysm (AAA) screening. A free NHS service for men aged 65 and over."

On page 2.
Who can be screened? - The NHS invites all men for screening in the year they turn 65.

What about men over 65? - Men aged over 65 who have not been screened before can contact their local service to arrange a test.

NHS Reference from the Leaflet

My appointment and scan was at Yarnspinners in Nelson.
Ian

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