FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 20 Mar 2019, 09:03

A surprising language related Forgotten Corner from last night's talk. Whilst we were clearing up at the end of the evening the speaker, Ann Buckley from Leeds Uni, asked us what we understood by the phrase " the scales fell from my eyes". This had cropped up in the translation from German and neither she or her colleagues had come across it before! She is testing it out on as many people as she can but it seems to be a generational thing.....

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by plaques » 20 Mar 2019, 09:29

From the bits and pieces I have read I always got the impression that the German peoples were well versed in the bible and were relatively more pious than our lot.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 21 Mar 2019, 03:57

Biblical of course, Acts 9:18 (I had to look up chapter and verse but recognised the phrase.) I always thought it was describing cataracts.....
Here's a LINK for an article I did.....
We had an ex POW on the site at one time, I forget his name..... He was a model maker.... Just remembered he sent me a book in 2010, his name was Kurt.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 22 Mar 2019, 04:17

Image

German POWs at White House Farm, Elslack. Not sure of the year but it could have been after the war. They were probably better off here than at home in those immediate post war years when Germany and the much of Europe was in turmoil.
One of the post war features common to both World Wars was the shortage of shipping and transport capacity due to war damage. This slowed down not only the repatriation of prisoners but also the demobilisation of our armed forces, especially those in far flung theatres of war. In addition the bureaucrats remembered the chaos that had happened at the end of WW1 when demobilisation had been done too quickly. In 1919 when 'Red Clydeside' rose in revolt it was noted that many marchers still had their personal weapons from the war. If this sounds improbable, read Horace Thornton's evidence in the LTP. He tells the story of a young over-officious bobby trying to move a group of veterans on outside the pub at closing time by ordering them to 'disperse in the name of the King'. Bad mistake, one of the men went home, got his service pistol and started shooting at the floor round the bobby's feet! He got a short spell in gaol as I remember.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 23 Mar 2019, 04:23

Image

The Yankee bar in 2009. I see there are alterations being done to it currently. I wonder what it will open as next?
I've forgotten the name of the lady who ran it for years, she was very well known in the town.
Once again I realise how things change and it's by looking at the old pics we see the full extent.... Only ten years ago.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 23 Mar 2019, 09:54

The last occupant of the Milk Bar was Joyce. It was known as Joyce's Snack Bar, Wine Bar is long gone and now replaced by Sashslide window vendors, hairdressers is still there but as a gents or is it a unisex establishment? I used to go there when I had hair, Sally does mine now, only takes a couple of minutes. :extrawink: Bank of course has recently closed and is boarded up
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 24 Mar 2019, 04:21

Joyce! That was the lady! Thanks Ian....

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Quite a few changes since this post card was made of Church Street. I'd guess at late 40s or early 1950s. Massey's still had the Commercial. Jack Savage's greengrocer's and was that the Electricity showroom next door? St James' church is there as well.The new bank at the end hasn't been built either. I love these old images, they carry so much information.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 24 Mar 2019, 09:23

Mentioned elsewhere, the tree in the left distance will probably be within the boundaries of St James church I reckon. Depending on the date, the bloke talking to the guy on the bike with the raincoat over his shoulder looks at a glance like my dad with his stature.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 25 Mar 2019, 04:12

That makes sense about the tree Ian. Let's get a petition up to demolish that horrible old bank building and plant some trees there.....

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1979.

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1983
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 26 Mar 2019, 04:56

I started on Whitaker yesterday.... He mentions an ancient field name at East Marton, 'Keld' and I begin to think I may have been mis-hearing the name of the spring that was the source of the Gledstone Estate water supply. I've never seen it written down and so the correct name is almost certainly Keld Well. I must remember to use that name in future!

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Two views of Gledstone Old Hall. The building with the turret is the old stables which is now a domestic residence.

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Gisburne Park.

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The gateway at Gisburne Park.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 27 Mar 2019, 04:00

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Sawley Abbey c.1800 from Whitaker.

Something I noted when using the old road before Sawley Brow had its latest realignment was the number of buildings in the vicinity of the abbey site that had pieces of carved stone evidently 'rescued' from the ruins. The local found the abbey a very handy quarry when they were building!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 28 Mar 2019, 04:42

Image

Broughton Hall in about 1800.

Whitaker taught me something I didn't know....
Roger Tempest of Bracewell, second son of Richard Tempest and executor of his will in 1427 married well into the Guilliot Family in about 1406. He married Catherine who owned what was then known as Guilliot Place a good house and estate at Broughton.
The original hall was on the flat in front of the present house, on the side of the brook. In 1597 a new house was built further back and became known as Broughton Hall when the old house was demolished. Only the shell of the original central hall was used in the 18th century rebuild which gave us the present building. At that time the estate totalled about 3,000 acres and included the hamlet of Elslack.
The 1597 rebuild included a chapel and as the family were Recusants (Still holding to the Roman Catholic version of Christianity) it was used by the Catholics in the surrounding estate as a place of worship. As mentioned before, the Broughton Tempests also supported a convent at East Marton which was functional until the late 1960s.
I have always wondered what the connection was between the Bracewell and Broughton branches of the Tempest family was and this is the explanation. Interesting to note (As does Whitaker) the difference in family fortunes of the two branches. As Bracewell declined, Broughton prospered. Note also that in the 18th century it was a will disputed by the Broughton Tempests that stopped the sale of Bracewell to the Weddell family for a time.
I think this qualifies as a forgotten corner! See THIS website for the present day estate.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 29 Mar 2019, 04:35

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Bracewell church on the right in this old image, about 1850 I think.... Hard by the hall as it was an essential part of a medieval estate. I don't suppose Richard Tempest was too pleased when he found in 1347 that Henry de Lacy had given his manor to the monks from Fountain's Abbey (It was included in Barnoldswick). His family had built St Michaels and quite separate from ownership of the manor, the Tempests also had the advowson of the church, they appointed the priest and administered the tithes. They had to pass this over the the monks in 1347. Whitaker says it went to Kirkstall but he is wrong, in 1347 the monks were seated in Barlick, they didn't leave for Kirkstall until 1352. This explains why, when they demolished the church at Barlick, the monks were able to designate St Michaels as parish church for the whole of the manor and it stayed that way until Gill Kirk was built. The Barlickers would not be pleased at having to walk down to Bracewell every Sunday in all weathers!
The last Tempest connected to the church was Arthur Tempest, known as Father Tempest. He was priest from about 1717 to 1750. (1717 was the time the estate was under dispute during a change to Weddell ownership) he lived in the 'vicarage' in great poverty. Whitaker had seen the 'vicarage' in the late 18th century and he described it as a two room cottage open to the roof with a clay floor and unfit for hogs, never mind a priest.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 29 Mar 2019, 09:51

Stanley wrote:
29 Mar 2019, 04:35
This explains why, when they demolished the church at Barlick, the monks were able to designate St Michaels as parish church for the whole of the manor and it stayed that way until Gill Kirk was built. The Barlickers would not be pleased at having to walk down to Bracewell every Sunday in all weathers!
I doubt if they were too taken on when Gill was built. I reckon it's further from Town Head to Gill than it is to Bracewell.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Mar 2019, 04:34

You're right Ian but I was thinking in terms of what turned them against the Cistercians before Gill was built.

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Two views of Eshton Hall.

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Coniston Hall.
I can remember seeing Coniston Hall being demolished and totally rebuilt in the 1960s as I passed it frequently on the main road.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 31 Mar 2019, 03:36

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Malham church c. 1800.

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Malham Cove from Whitaker.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 01 Apr 2019, 03:27

I've mined Whitaker for references and am going to have another look at Warner now. Over the years there are things I have forgotten!

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Church Street in about 1900. I often comment about change, that's what makes forgotten corners, but one change embedded in this image is often forgotten. Church Street as we see it here didn't exist until the Village Green was sold in 1815. The whole of the left hand side was open field down into Butts. The Green must have been common land and the Local Vestry used the proceeds to culvert the troublesome ford in Walmsgate and at the same time diverted and improved the road through the town making the new Church Street into the main through route instead of Back Lane (Philip Street today). But at that time there was no church so what was the name then? Something nags at the back of my mind telling me that it was known then as Westgate but I shall have to rediscover the reference for this.
When I look at these old pics I wonder about the life history of the kids.....

Image

This pic outside the Red Lion in Earby intrigued me for the same reason. I went digging in the area at one time and am almost certain that the little girl was from the farm she is stood near. Every picture tells a story but sometimes it's a forgotten one!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 02 Apr 2019, 04:16

Looking again at those two pics I am once more reminded of how good water bound macadam road surfaces can be if well-maintained. You could be forgiven for thinking it was tarmac but trust me it isn't. Notice the wheel marks on the Earby pic.

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This pic of Tubber Hill in about 1910 or 20 (There are telegraph poles) shows again how good a stone road surface can be.
Billy Brooks told me that the first setts in the town were laid in the centre of the town in about 1900 and over the subsequent years all the roads were capped as motor traffic became common. I suspect that the outlying roads went straight from water bound macadam to scarifying the existing surface and capping with tar spraying and rolling. Maintenance was by further tar spraying and gritting on the hot tar, over the years this became a thick coating. There is evidence in modern road works that in the centre of the town the usual progression was to lay setts.
One of the drivers for this improvement was the fact that coal gas producing plants produced large quantities of 'gas tar' and this was almost all used locally on the roads. Note that the gas tar was also used for sealing the gaps round freshly laid stone setts.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 03 Apr 2019, 03:42

Image

Annie Brooks and Fred Slater enjoying a day out in 1929 near the boating lake at Bracewell Hall which was then being used as a country club and music venue.
I often comment on the fact that these old pics are some of the best social evidence we have. This is a case in point. My imagination may be running riot but I read in this image two people who aren't really free and enjoying their lives. I was once told that up to forty years old you have the face you were born with and after that you have the one you deserve. I think there's a lot of truth in that. Take note of the faces of people in the street if you don't believe me.
There's a lot on the site about Bracewell Hall as a country club, see Arthur Entwistle in the LTP in particular. He was a member of a band and they often played at the hall for dances.

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The hall in about 1930. It was used during the war as offices by the Rover Company when they moved their factories into Craven after the Coventry blitz and was eventually demolished by Briggs and Duxbury after the war.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 04 Apr 2019, 04:05

I tripped over a series of documents in my archive on the Cavaille-Coll organ that Hopwood installed in Bracewell Hall. I have posted one in rare texts, I've also bumped one of my articles, The French Connection. If you read them you'll find that when Hopwood bought Bracewell Hall he installed a large organ in the 'music room' and subsequently removed it to his new home Ketton Hall when he left Bracewell.

Image

The organ from Bracewell as it is today in the Parr Hall at Warrington.

I suppose it says something about my preconceptions that I was surprised to find a pipe organ made in Paris by a major manufacturer in Bracewell. (We have another notable organ in the town in the New Ship chapel in Walmsgate but I mustn't get diverted!) It was a lesson to me to try to be more open and not to be surprised by what I found. This renewed interest in Bracewell has been triggered by reading Whitaker. I get a clearer picture of the estate and its development over the years.
One thing that struck me was the contrast between the fortunes of Tempest at Broughton and his home estate at Bracewell run by his family. If you have a look at the 1717 map of the estate that was produced when Weddell was buying it you'll see that at that time the estate was still being run on the Open Field system, a hangover from medieval times and I wonder whether one of the reasons the Bracewell branch of the family failed was because they hadn't modernised their estate management.
All forgotten now but a fascinating example of the by-ways research takes you down!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 05 Apr 2019, 03:54

It interested me to see that 17 page views are recorded for the rather obscure article by Gerald Sumners I posted yesterday. (And yes, I know about bots!) but someone has had an interest and read it. One of our forgotten corners is the way the site is accessed by guests searching for information. This pleases me....
One of the undeniable facts about Barlick is that it has always been, to a certain extent, a place apart. In some ways this was seen as a disadvantage but when you look at the way towns like Nelson and Colne have been affected by development and contrast this with Barlick it starts to look like an advantage. We still have a homogeneous build quality due to the fact that our major development was in the latter part of the 19th century and only stopped in 1914 with the advent of the Great War. The consequence is that we have retained our street patterns and the majority of the town being stone built. 'Cottages' and back to backs seen as hopelessly out of date by 'planners' in the 1950s survived and are now recognised for what they always were, solidly built houses capable of being brought up to modern standards. Houses that could be bought for a few hundreds of pounds then are now very desirable homes commanding high prices. This was an accident, it wasn't planned in the 1950s but we reap the benefit now. With a few exceptions, a house built in 1900 is almost modern!
My point is that we sometimes forget this and when someone applies for a new build like Post Office Corner, the fire station or something as modern as the Yorkshire Bank or Barclay's we should object and ask if this really is an improvement. In the absence of any other argument, renovation of an old property is always a smaller carbon footprint than demolition and a rebuild using modern materials. This is not clinging to the past, it's hard reality.
One further matter. The French, when speaking about the quality of a wine talk about 'The Terroir' of a particular vineyard. Research into nutrition has identified the benefits of eating locally produced food because we are attuned to the unique combination of minerals and micro organisms in the soil. I would argue that the same applies to buildings constructed using local stone. I can't prove this but I suspect it applies and is an advantage so that's today's forgotten corner.

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Club Row. All scheduled for demolition in the 1950s and they could be bought for £500. How much are they worth today?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 06 Apr 2019, 03:58

Image

King Henry's Parlour in Bracewell village.

This insignificant barn in Bracewell has a story connected to it. If you look carefully at the image you'll see that the window on the left is interesting.

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This is an early 15th century window, possibly even older. This building incorporates all that is left of the original Bracewell Hall and it pre-dates the larger brick hall built in the 16th century.

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The ruins of the brick hall in the 18th century.

Their is a local tradition that in 1464 when the Lancastrian Henry VI was defeated at Hexham he fled and eventually found refuge with Sir John Tempest at Bracewell who was a supporter. From Bracewell Henry set off for Waddington and was captured en route and taken to the Tower of London having been betrayed by the Talbots. Since then the locals always called the building 'King Henry's Parlour'.
I have been doing a lot of digging of late and from the sources available to me this story is credible, everything fits. I think we can trust the local folk memory.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 07 Apr 2019, 04:07

My forgotten corner this morning is the ancient Manorial Court. In one form or another it existed in pre-Conquest times but most of the records we have are from later when it was the enforcer of Common Law, more serious disputes went to the Kings Bench at York.
I was looking at some proceedings yesterday and noted that on September 23 1536 67 persons were 'amerced'. (A large number, the total population of the manor would be about 300 at the time.) To be 'amerced was to be fined but recognise that this 'fine' wasn't necessarily a punishment for wrong-doing. It was also a mechanism whereby rents were paid for things like encroaching on the waste or common land which, strictly speaking, were offences. In the 16th century the population was rising and there was a need for more houses so 'squatting' on the common was a frequent misdemeanour. This was tolerated because it was essential and pre-dated the 16th century enclosures.
However, at the same court Thomas Baxter, Christopher Ratclyf and Thomas Ellis were fined for obstructing the road at Westfield so this was certainly a penalty. Christopher Parker and Richard Dyconson were fined 'for taking browse from the woods'. (this would be for cattle feed)
At a court in 1542 there is a mention of John Tempest of 'The Rane'. Was this Rane Hall, the origin of the modern name Rainhall? He was serving in the Jury.
Another thing that struck me that reinforces the concept of amercement being more a rent than a punishment is that 'offenders' could be found sitting as jurors and jurors could also be the subject of fines. Sir John Tempest of Bracewell is frequently amongst the latter.
In 1550 there is a reference to the price of 'turbary' (Peat cut on the moor) 6d was paid for a 'wayne' (4 wheeled wagon) and 3d for a two wheeled cart. The money went to Gill Church as a tithe.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 08 Apr 2019, 03:53

Really reading and indexing old records like Whitaker and Warner is good for reminding you of snippets and gobbets of information that you have squirrelled away in your brain for years and of course when you die it is all lost.
That's why my index is so important, it has many thousands of entries after 40 years of reading, listening and researching. I made some moves yesterday to try to ensure that it ends up in the right place when I die. Problem is of course where? It needs to be local and easily accessible and in normal times this would be simple, put it in the local library and allow public access. My problem is that I have no confidence in the local library system, is there any guarantee that they are permanent?
So that is perhaps today's forgotten corner. Libraries that were regarded as repositories of knowledge, today they are 'information centres'.
Ideally it should be digitised and sent out into the wild on the Internet. Perhaps that ought to be my next task......
If anyone has any advice as to format for such an exercise, let me know!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Christian » 08 Apr 2019, 07:56

Following on from the lidar mapping I've been doing, it has been suggested that I link to it a Wikipedia clone to store information in.

Might be worth a look? wiki.ogfb?

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