FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by BarlickBillie » 27 Jun 2019, 19:03

Do you mind me asking how long ago your grandparents lived there? I'm trying to find out what changes were made to the house in (relatively) recent history!

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 27 Jun 2019, 19:22

I'm not sure when my grandparents moved into number 15. They were certainly there in the late 50's as I remember going up on Thursday shopping day with my mum before I started school in 1957 (I started when I was 4 years old). My aunt and Uncle and two cousins lived next door at 17 which I seem to remember seemed to have quite a few niches downstairs. Number 15 was pretty conventional, front room off King Street, stairs up the middle, back sitting room and a kitchen extension up a few steps out of the back room. My Granddad died in 1960 and I think Grandma moved out in the late 60's. My Uncle died in the early 70's and my Aunt remarried later in the 70's I think which is when she left number 17. My cousins had already left, one left Barlick I seem to remember and the other into the WRAF, they were both a little older than me
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 27 Jun 2019, 20:10

I can't find 15 or 17 King Street in the 1939 Register, odd numbers only seem to go up to 11. Can I look your grandparents up Ian?

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 27 Jun 2019, 21:37

Of course Wendy, Christina and Fred Hall. My maternal grandparents. Christina (Burden) hailed from Wimborne in Dorset and the family before that Cornwall. Only just started on my maternal side so not got very far back. Added problem, the version of our genealogy program that we have (Family Tree Maker) won't run on Windows 10 and we have let our Ancestry subscription lapse for the moment.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 28 Jun 2019, 01:39

Wendy is right, I bought number 11, the end house for my mother and I lived in 12 the through house across the road. 11 cost me £2,000 and 12 cost £4,000 both in the late 1980s. I can't remember how the older houses that included the Legion were named or numbered.

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King St in 1986.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 28 Jun 2019, 07:32

I've found your grandparents in the 1939 Register Ian, and they were living at 17 York Street with your great grandmother Margaret and Nora living next door at 15 York Street.

15 York Street Nora Hall b 1899 Single Weaver
Margaret A Hall b 1864 Married Domestic duties (married not widowed?)
17 York Street Fred Hall b 1897 Married Chauffeur and gardener
Edith C Hall b 1898 Married Domestic duties (WVS canteen noted later)
Edith M Hall (changed to Lambert 1946) b 1920 Single Domestic duties (WVS Hospital supplies?)
One more entry blanked out.

Actual birth dates are given but i havent put them in. My question about Margaret being shown as married rather than widowed.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 28 Jun 2019, 07:39

I'll attach the page from the register. Hope you can see it OK
TNA_R39_3603_3603B_011.jpg
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 28 Jun 2019, 09:20

Smashing Wendy, which register is this? I had only just started on my maternal side when we lot use of FTM and we stopped our Ancestry subscription.

Do you know the reason for the officially closed entries that are blanked out, are they serving military personnel by any chance? Interesting to see my Grandma and my mum in the WVS at that time, mum would have been just turned 20 and went to Rover shortly after as far as I am aware. I take it my mums entry would have been updated later with her married name in 1946?

I have just realised the closed entry could be for my Aunt Margaret my mums sister who would have been under age at the time. Depending what the register was for? She was younger than my mum but I have forgotten her year birth year maybe 16 or so at the time. She was certainly living at home at that time
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 28 Jun 2019, 11:28

The register was taken at the outbreak of war in 1939 after the National Registration Act was passed. Enumerators collected the forms filled in on the night of the 29th September and gave out Identity cards based on the information provided. It was used right through into the 1950s for rationing etc. The blanked out entries are usually people who were still alive when the Register was released . You can apply to Find my Past get the entry opened if you can prove the person has died.
They are fascinating, and very useful for family history purposes.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 28 Jun 2019, 13:44

Right that explains it, my Aunt Margaret survived my mum by quite a few years. That will almost certainly be her entry. An interesting resource although if done on the date you mention they have my mums age wrong I take it that would be one of the questions although DOB are shown so they should have had her as 19 at the enumeration date. I wonder if it was just an oversight or planned by my mum so she would attain 21 a year earlier according to her ID card?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 28 Jun 2019, 14:00

I have always been surprised that my grandparents christened my mum Edith Mary rather than possibly the other way round. Mum didn't like Edith and always used Mary, Her mother didn't use Edith either and always preferred Christina. Margaret obviously named after my grandfathers mother.

I''m named after both my dad and my dads brother Bob, Ian being a variant of John and Robert of course for the Sunday name. I have always been happy with Ian, neither my brother or sister have middle names. My brother George is named after my dads younger brother who died in infancy.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 28 Jun 2019, 14:08

The 20 on the register is the year of birth not the age, so your Mum, being born on the 10th March 1920 would have been 19 in Sept 1939. :smile: (My mum was born 10th March 1921.)
Just looked closer and I see it's April!

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 28 Jun 2019, 15:09

Neither, my mums birthday was 10 November so she was actually 18 at the time of the register. The enumerator has a stylised "V" looking at other entries.

I have a photo of my mum and dad when they were courting it's dated 1936 mum was 16 and dad 18.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Whyperion » 28 Jun 2019, 18:52

PanBiker wrote:
27 Jun 2019, 21:37
Of course Wendy, Christina and Fred Hall. My maternal grandparents. Christina (Burden) hailed from Wimborne in Dorset and the family before that Cornwall. Only just started on my maternal side so not got very far back. Added problem, the version of our genealogy program that we have (Family Tree Maker) won't run on Windows 10 and we have let our Ancestry subscription lapse for the moment.
I think you can still search Ancestry fully from the Public Library Computers, and log in and update manually any information you find using your Ancestry user ID if that saves a subscription - though I found Barnoldswick Library Computers terribly slow, is their wi-fi, if any, any better ?

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 28 Jun 2019, 19:39

I dont know about Barlick Library but the Colne Library computers are ancient and still running on XP. Best place is the new library in Earby with brand new computers and superfast broadband. You can access the library versions of Ancestry & Findmypast on your own laptop/tablet in the library.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2019, 02:44

Image

SCG interpretation of the 1580 Whitemoor map. (With invaluable help from the late Doreen Crowther)

I've gone back to Whitemoor for this morning's forgotten corner, not because of the dispute between Foulridge and Barlick over rights on the Moor which was the purpose of the original map, but because my mind had strayed to the access roads to the enclosures. When we talk about the enclosures of the waste most people assume it is the 19th century enclosures, the Buttle Award etc. What we tend to forget is that there was an earlier incursion on the Moor in the 16th century, the evidence is on this map, there are enclosures marked for Barlick and Foulridge and we can trust it as this was a legal document for the case in Chancery.
These early enclosures interest me because something must have triggered them and for many years I thought that the sole reason was the growth in population in this part of England, against the national trend, which I and others suspect was driven by people marrying earlier when they were more fertile because due to the new income from domestic textiles they could gain independence earlier without waiting for parents to will family holdings to them. This population growth put pressure on food resources and so land on the lower slopes of the waste was enclosed and improved to give more production. The same pressure can be seen in the rise of the 'pirate' corn mills that we see at the same time, the existing manorial, Kings and Monastic mills couldn't cope. I still think this was a major factor but as I learn more about national history I realise that there is another possible explanation for the trend to early enclosures.
Like much of our history it is complicated and I shall bang on about this tomorrow. It's too early in the morning for a long essay!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Jun 2019, 04:25

The date of the Whitemoor dispute is significant, 1580. The major change in ownership of and speculation with land was the Dissolution of the Monasteries around 1525 to 1540. The Church owned or controlled over a third of the land in England and at the Dissolution this came on to the private market as the Crown capitalised on its new assets. Apart from the physical change in ownership this triggered a change in the mind-set of those with enough resources to take on more land. A movement started that was aimed at 'improving' profitability, often to pay off the borrowings that had been entered into the buy the land in the first place. In many parts of the country this included illegal enclosure of what had been regarded as 'common land' to convert them to ranges for stock, particularly sheep as this required far less labour and meant greater profits. In many parts of the country, particularly in the east and the south this caused massive unrest in the largely agricultural population who saw nothing but the theft of what customary law had always guaranteed them, access to 'the waste' and the commons to supplement their sparse incomes. Even activities like gathering firewood and turfs for heating were taken from them.
Up here in the wild and Woolly North West, long seen as a remote and lawless region by government this was not the major factor. We didn't have the great landed magnates squabbling over control, we had the pressure of a rising population on food resources and this was the key driver for the early enclosures of the lower and more fertile parts of the waste.
I have always thought that the 1580 dispute between the Manors of Foulridge and Barlick was driven by this need to control the resource, both in terms of grazing and energy supplies. As I alluded yesterday this included water power because the same rise in population put pressure on existing corn mills which had insufficient capacity to supply a growing demand. Remember that transport difficulties precluded importing ground products from surrounding districts and anyway, they had the same shortages. If you look at the Calendar of Lancashire Documents on the site you'll find that there was a rise in the number of illegal mills, the so-called 'pirate mills. Wood End on County Brook was one of them. In many cases the Manorial Courts took a fairly pragmatic attitude to this 'law breaking' because, like incursions on to the Waste for house building, a pressing need was being fulfilled and fines were levied instead. (Upper Hall is a good example)

Image

In effect these were recognition and the imposition of a rent by another name. Where such disputes were judged against the offenders it was usually because there was a local magnate who had enough clout to force demolition through and round here that wasn't the case.
So to go back to my original thought about the access roads, the genesis if these was the need to have access to the enclosures without crossing newly enclosed land, previously they had only been needed for access to the waste itself. In 1814 the later enclosures meant further development of these access roads and this is how we ended up with what we have now. This forgotten corner at least has a rational explanation.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 01 Jul 2019, 04:13

If we were able to go back to 1500 and look at the collection of small hamlets that have today coalesced into modern Barlick one of the first things that would strike us is the absence of stone built buildings. The reason for this was that until the Dissolution, the mid 16th century, the masons were all working for either the crown on fortifications or other royal building projects or the Church. The only exceptions to this were some gentry houses built be people of influence and unlimited wealth and there weren't many in that class round here.. True there were some exceptions like Coates Hall and estate owners like the Tempests but on the whole what we had were the descendants of the Saxon houses, rubble stone foundations, timber and wattle and daub walls and in the better ones stone chimney piles. On the whole it wasn't until the 17th century that we started to get rebuilds of timber halls in stone as masons became more common in the community and incomes started to rise largely due to the growth of the domestic textile industry. I have little doubt that some of the poorer houses would still lack chimneys and still be using the central fire and smoke hole in the thatched roof. (The structures weren't strong enough to support a grey slate roof even if these were within the budget)
The same thing applied to fittings. There would be very little window glass and the carpentry would be a very low standard, things like a well fitting outside door would be obvious deficiencies to our modern eyes.
This is why if we date old houses anything 17th century is very old indeed and most of what we regard as very old is 18th Century.
There was another intermediate phase of improvement, the rebuilding of some house frontages in what the vernacular historian calls 'polite' design. This was where a house was partially rebuilt to give a symmetrical fascia.

Image

Hill Top Farm is a good example of this, here it is in about 1890, the house has been modernised with a symmetrical frontage and a barn on the end. The give-away in most of these is to go round the back and have a look at the difference. Many houses, particularly farm houses were treated like this.
Most of what we see today as the 'old' stone built houses are a product of the boom in textiles from 1850 onwards. It was then that the gaps between the hamlets were in-filled with houses using the products of the new quarries on Upper Hill at an astounding rate and this expansion lasted until the outbreak of the Great War. Apart from some modern houses built after the war, some in the new material of Accrington Brick like the bungalows on Greenberfield Lane and the new fire station, there was no significant building in the town until after WW2 when we got the new estates. These were almost all poured concrete houses as this was the favoured building material then. Since then modern planning rules have largely ensured that any building now is in stone or stone substitutes in keeping with the 19th century builds.
Once you understand the history of our development the built landscape makes sense and repays careful inspection. This is a relatively new discipline and is called Vernacular Architecture. I was ignorant about it until I worked with John Miller at Pendle Heritage and it opened up a completely new perspective of a hitherto forgotten corner.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 02 Jul 2019, 03:31

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I've never been able to find evidence to prove it but I believe these massive Cast Iron girders beneath both bridges in Valley Gardens could have been recycled from the old railway bridge across the canal on the Barlick branch line.

Image

If they aren't they are a similar re-use and whoever designed them is to be congratulated, a very good use of reclaimed materials and they will last us out!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 04 Jul 2019, 04:00

Thinking about Valley Gardens reminds me of the Physical Efficiency debate in the late 19th century (historians make connections like that....). This arose when it was realised that recruits for the army were almost all unfit for service especially for the Crimean War. The question was how could this be in the foremost industrial nation on earth? It didn't take long for the penny to drop, it was the terrible conditions they lived and worked under. One result of this debate was the start of the municipal parks movement to make it possible for the workers to engage in 'rational leisure' and that was when we saw the inception of our public parks. Even though we are so near the surrounding countryside, Barlick got on the band wagon in 1900 with Letcliffe and followed that with Victory and Valley Gardens.
Question, "In today's climate would such an expense be even contemplated?" We all know the answer and it illustrates the low point we have reached today.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 05 Jul 2019, 03:55

Another result of that 19th century debate was the inception of what was called by reactionaries at the time 'Municipal Socialism', the inception and installation of mains water, sewage and waste disposal by local authorities. Up till then it had been mainly on an ad hoc basis and often privately funded. The objection from the wealthy was that it was the poor who benefited first because obviously they were the site of the worst conditions. It took a while for the penny to drop with the objectors that these improvements benefited everyone as the incidence of infectious diseases fell, particularly Cholera, and these, once unleashed made no distinction on the grounds of class or wealth.
A great improvement and we take them for granted these days.
(I am forced to observe that this same fallacious argument persists today in matters of support for society.)
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 06 Jul 2019, 03:44

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The band stand in Letcliffe Park in about 1920 when it was still in regular use. I can remember it still being used in the 1960s but I think it has fallen out of favour now.

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The band stand in 2010. Note how the trees have grown in 90 years!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Cathy » 06 Jul 2019, 08:07

Great photo, love the low hedges, very English :smile:
I know I'm in my own little world, but it's OK... they know me here. :)

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Tripps » 06 Jul 2019, 10:51

Cathy wrote:
06 Jul 2019, 08:07
love the low hedges, very English
Indeed. What happened to the large Garden shows which were held in various parts of the country not so long ago? I recall Liverpool, Newcastle and and Glasgow had them. The lawns and gardens of this country are possibly unique, and of interest to visitors, and maybe it would help to get the tourists out of London and Cambridge.

Where's the Northern Powerhouse when you need it? :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 06 Jul 2019, 11:35

In Barlick with the Barlick in Bloom group. Judging for best kept was yesterday.
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