FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 23 Nov 2019, 05:21

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This building on Sagin Hill going up to the Croft has a chequered history. Built by Matt Hartley in about 1915 as a public swimming baths, part of his vision to rebuild the town centre, it failed when the Council refused to lay an improved water supply for it. This led to a prolonged dispute between Matt and the Council, one of the effects of which is reputed to be the disappearance of the mayoral regalia he had donated. It was taken over by a man who was into electricity and became first an ice making plant and then a centre for an electrical contracting business. When this business failed it became a garage, known and remembered today as Croft garage. It seems to be used now for storage.
I used to think it was originally a billiard hall but have discarded that theory now.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 23 Nov 2019, 06:13

Stanley wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 05:21
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I used to think it was originally a billiard hall but have discarded that theory now.
Did I read somewhere that it was used as a roller skating rink?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 23 Nov 2019, 07:00

No Kev, that was the old Alhambra in Butts. It was a roller skating rink and cinema when it burned down in 1923. The site is the Clinic now. (I say that but it looks as though the fate of that is sealed)

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Note the polished clogs of the kids!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Whyperion » 23 Nov 2019, 23:06

Stanley wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 05:21
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It seems to be used now for storage.
If you get a chance to peek at what is actually (or was 5 years ago at least) in there it is quite interesting, still motoring related, but dont tell anyone.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 24 Nov 2019, 03:35

Can anyone remember EARAT? The East Anglian Roadstone and Transport Company. They specialised in large tar spraying and chipping jobs and had a contract with I think the old LCC because for a few years in the late 1950s they used to descend onto the district with their big planing machine and other equipment and do major tar and chipping jobs in the district.
They were like a threshing gang, had their own living vans and red diesel tanker(for the burners on the planer and heating tar). A favourite camping spot was the wide verge on the railway bridge on the New Road near the Kelbrook junction, their local was the Craven Heifer and they were good customers, that's how I met them.
I suspect they were popular for other reasons than their cheerful demeanour and patronising the pub. It was rumoured that they were a good unofficial source of cheap diesel but this was only hearsay and I may be wrong. It was good to see why the LCC employed them, they were incredibly fast because they had all the right equipment and knew how to use it, they could transform large lengths of road in no time at all.
I found this LINK. The Gazette says they liquidated in March 1998.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 25 Nov 2019, 07:54

While I was waiting for the internet to establish this morning I did a bit of furtling in the archive.
The name of the electrician who ran the building on Sagin Hill as an ice plant was Phineas Brown and the owner of the property when I talked to him in 2004 was Mr Berisford.
Thought I'd clear that loose end up!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 26 Nov 2019, 04:52

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I have recently been approached by a TV production company who are making a Barlick related film. They wanted some images off me. This reminded me of the media Attention Bancroft got in 1979 when we closed. This was the film crew in the shed on the last day.
At the time I was very angry, nobody took any notice of us when we were fighting for survival but descended like vultures as soon as there was a mill closure story. They weren't the only ones, others came and interviewed me and Newton and the thing I remember at the time was that when the film was used they had cut almost all of Newton out, I had made sure he got his say. When I complained and asked why I was told be a very refined TV lady that the audience wouldn't have been able to understand what he was saying! A small example of the blinkered syndrome that existed then. I'm not quite certain things are much better!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Whyperion » 26 Nov 2019, 18:43

There appears to be more acceptance , indeed promotion of, regional accents, in some programmes there has been the use of subtitles from North East, Brummie , Mancunian/Scouse and West Country accents ( I dont know why- I can follow most where common English words are used - some words which may be more Viking in origin may be uncertain to other parts of the country as can grammatical changes - these can be / should be learned and explained as part of the narrative, you cannot make a film about an area without taking in its verbal, background noise, air and patina of the natural or built in environment.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 27 Nov 2019, 04:28

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Mention of TV reminded me of this lady. Lynette Lithgow (LINK). She was presenter on a programme I made for Granada in 1987 and became a good friend visiting often. A lovely lady but in 2001 was brutally murdered in Port of Spain together with her mother and husband. Such a waste and forgotten by most but not me, a lovely woman and a good friend. One of the murderers was her nephew which made it even worse.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 28 Nov 2019, 05:13

I think you might have detected that I do a lot of thinking about Barlick. This is partly because I believe I bed in better in my environment if I understand it, that's probably why I never hanker after travel or holidays these days, makes life a lot simpler in many ways! My interest in the textile industry means I have water power sites and their sources constantly in mind.

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That's why, on my morning walk I always take note of the flow over the Corn Mill dam in Butts. Is it a 'miller's flow'? It strikes me that today is a good example of the constant dilemma the water mill owners faced, at this time of year there is the best chance of a useful flow but at the same time we are short of daylight and so there was the expense of candles to give light even during the day. This was a surprisingly high expense in all sorts of mills, nit just twist mills. Look in the Calendar of Lancashire Documents on the site and find the water mill accounts, all for grain grinding, and you can see the figures for yourself.
At the same time look at the number of regulations there were about water rights and the responsibility on land owners for maintaining the roads to the mills, including the bridges. You'll be surprised I think at their complexity and the draconian sanctions that could be levied. A gold mine of Forgotten Corners and comparable to modern bye-laws and regulation.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 29 Nov 2019, 05:00

We live in troubled economic and political times but this isn't the first time we have been here and how we coped before is largely a forgotten corner and not even taught in schools nowadays from what I can make out.
Examples that spring to mind on which the site has evidence go back a surprisingly long way.

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This is Old Gledstone Hall and the building on the right with the weather vane on top is the stables which still survive as David Nelson's residence. They were built as a precaution against French invasion in the Napoleonic Wars (1803-1815) and were designed large enough to accommodate a troop of cavalry.

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We have evidence in the LTP that Seven Stars Yard was where emergency rations were distributed at the start of the Great War when the wives of volunteers were going short because the official support schemes hadn't kicked in.
If you go into the Calf Hall Shed Company's minute books on the site you can find many examples of the difficulties that arose during both World Wars and how industry coped with the challenges.
These are all Forgotten Corners today and I think it's a good thing to remind people of our history and resilience in the face of uncertainties. We might need that reassurance in the years to come!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Nov 2019, 04:31

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The air raid shelter at Bancroft Shed in 1977. The windows were put in after the war so it could be used as a fire-proof dirty waste store.

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In Stockport we had one of these, an Anderson Shelter provided by the government sunk in our back garden. I don't know of any in Barlick, not as much risk of bombing but all the mills had to have one.

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There was another type of construction, the pill box for armed defence of a site. Here's a pic of Rolls Royce in 1963, the tall building on the end of the main mill building is a pill box, reinforced concrete with slits to fire from.

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If you go to County Brook you'll see another variant on defence. The round concrete blocks in the picture were cast at the outbreak of war and were intended to be on the side of the road so that they could easily be rolled on to the road to block it. They are still there because as you can see they found another use, guarding the drop in the car park.
All examples of what was done at the outbreak of war. At least we don't have to do this today but they come under the same heading as the preparations for Brexit....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 01 Dec 2019, 04:24

When I was doing the LTP I came across evidence that there used to be an occasional livestock market in Church Street in the area at the top of Butts and outside the Seven Stars. Can you imagine the outcry today if something like that happened?
That reminds me of the days when I was driving the cattle wagon for Drinkalls. There was a family living up Folly Lane at Higher View and they had a small and very decrepit cattle wagon. (Up one of the worst roads in Barlick!) They attended Gisburn auction and there were three of them in the cab. We always knew them as 'The Thunderbirds' and I could never for the life of me understand how they made a living. Totally inconsequential I know but they always intrigued me. Definitely a blast from the past though.

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John Lancaster of Salterforth took notice of what we did at Drinkalls. If I remember rightly, when I left Richard and the brothers to go in the mill John took over for a few weeks but soon left and put his own wagon and trailer on the road. he took over my slot as driver of the biggest wagon in Barlick! It was a good outfit and he ran it for a few years. I don't know what happened after that, I lost track of him. A nice lad.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 02 Dec 2019, 04:31

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The cottages on Park Avenue where it meets Manchester Road opposite the Dog. There used to be another one on the left hand side but it was demolished when Manchester Road was widened. I remember an old lady called Rosie lived in the end one but my interest this morning is the outbuilding on the right hand end of the short row.
Newton told me about a lad, I forget his name now, who used this as a workshop and had a good selection of machine tools. He decided to try to make a living out of it and got a contract from a famous firm who made and sold working models of steam locomotives for a fair number of locos, I seem to remember it was twenty. He started off full of enthusiasm but soon realised he had under-priced the job and was working for less than a living wage. He had to renege on the contract and a budding small engineering firm bit the dust.
Definitely a forgotten corner!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 03 Dec 2019, 04:57

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Pic taken in 1979 of a building at Wellhouse Mill. Over the years it had a variety of uses, long gone now of course.
Originally it was built as a bobbin mill to supply the needs of the first Wellhouse Mill which was a combined mill and included spinning. As the mill changed to a pure weaving shed it became redundant and was used as the joiners shop for the mill and Bracewell's other mills. Then it became the base for Barrett's Laundry and in that role had an artesian well sunk in the floor to supply water. That ended just before WW2 when Barrett's built their own laundry behind the gas works. At that time Brown and Pickles were in demand for war work and needed more room so they took it over and installed heavy machines in there. Through all that time it was provided with steam and lineshaft power from the main mill engine. In 1981, it and the B&P Wellhouse shop were demolished, the end of a very useful building and now a forgotten corner.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 04 Dec 2019, 04:58

In the pic of the Wellhouse shop above the large arched entrance was the original entrance to the mill and the timekeeper's office was on the left of what was always called 'the thoroughfare'. At starting time the main gates were closed and late comers had to enter by the small doorway to the left that led into a passage past the time office. There they were identified and fined for being late. Right up to 1981 this was remembered and the small door was still called 'The penny hole'.
Incidentally, the main shop was always devoted to engineering right from the build of the mill in 1853. Bracewell had his own engineer, Peter Bilbrough, who was responsible for all the Bracewell mills backed up of course by the fact that Bracewell owned and operated a large iron foundry and engine makers in Burnley that later became Burnley Ironworks. In the 1880s when the Bracewell empire collapsed it would have been a natural progression for Pater to run the engineering shop as a private enterprise. This was needed and of course became eventually Brown and Pickles but this didn't happen. For some reason he completely changed course and became a coal merchant operating out of the railway yard supplying both industrial and domestic coal..

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You can see his sign on the wall of Croft house next to the entrance to the sidings on Station Road.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 05 Dec 2019, 05:03

Writing this post almost every day I am conscious of the fact that there is some repetition but that doesn't bother me because my purpose is to jog peoples memories and remind them of change, some for the better but some losses are regretted.

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This is one of the regrets, the old Majestic Cinema. This was in 1982. I'm not sure at the moment when it actually closed. Forgive me for burdening you but here's an interview I did that sheds some light.

MAJESTIC CINEMA AND MATT HARTLEY.

13 November 2004

Interview with Boris Hartley at his bungalow, the first red brick one up Greenberfield Lane.

Boris Hartley Born 10 May 1931. Father was Harry Hartley [son of Harold Hartley] mother was Olive nee Jacques. Her father was an engine driver at a mill in Skipton and had 18 children. They lived on Brook Street and this is where Boris was born. For the first two years of his life his cradle was the second drawer down in a chest of drawers in the bedroom. Harry had gone out to Niagara Falls when he came back after WW1 as it wasn’t certain then that the family business could support all the brothers. He came back round about 1928 when Matt offered him the job of managing the Gem (Later the Plaza) at Skipton. It was here that he met Olive and married her round about 1935. Boris said that there was another cinema opposite the bus station, the one I remember as the Odeon. It was started by a man called Morrison and was called the Morriseum. The Hartley family sold the Plaza in the mid 1990s.

Matt Hartley was Boris’s great grandfather, he had three sons, Rennie, Harold and Fred. Matt was born in Colne and his first venture seems to have been a pie and pea shop opposite the bank at the top of Colne.

I’ve searched the 1881 census and the only family I can come up with that fits is;
1881 census for Colne
John HARTLEY, 46, born Colne, Head, Plasterer
Mary A. HARTLEY, wife, 45, born Colne, Housekeeper
Pemberton HARTLEY, 17, born Colne, Son, plasterers Apprentice
Rennie HARTLEY. 14, born Colne, Son, Cotton Weaver
Henry HARTLEY. 12 , born Colne, Son, Scholar
Andaliza HARTLEY. 10, born Colne, Daughter, Scholar
Fred HARTLEY, 5 , born Nelson, Son, Scholar.

I asked Boris if his Gt Grandfather could have been known as John because this family seems to fit. He told me that he didn’t know but Matt seems to have been a bit of a character.

If this is the right family, and it seems to fit, Matt went walkabout sometime before 1875 and Boris says that he knows he was building houses in Marsden Heights at one time. This would fit in with Fred’s birth in Nelson in 1876. If he came back to Colne, still in the building trade, he must have been there until at least 1891 because there is no mention in the Barnoldswick census of him for that year. He built the Majestic in 1914 and so a move to Barlick just before 1900 would give him time to get established.

The majestic was a very early leisure centre. There was a ballroom which doubled as a roller skating rink and a billiard hall with 14 full sized tables on the first floor. The cinema was in the centre and when it first started was gas-lit but with a generator powered by a small gas engine which supplied power for the arc lamp for the projectors. Walt Fisher said this was on rails so it could be moved from one projector to the other when they changed reels. Later a larger engine and generator were added to light the whole of the building. Both engines were in a room behind the screen and they had their own gas producer in the same room, they drove the generators with leather belts. There was also a gentleman’s club, the entrance to this was in Fernlea Avenue next to the library. I’ve been told that it wasn’t unknown for people to play cards for money in there. There were shops on the front of the building on either side of the stairs leading up to the foyer of the cinema.

As well as the Majestic he built Station Chambers and the shops opposite the Majestic. He built six lock-up shops on the site where the Post Office is now. Boris thinks that he had a hand in building the block on the corner of Albert Road in 1906 that now houses the Occasion and two other small shops with accommodation over the top.

On the 11th of November 1940 M Hartley and Sons Limited presented a silver gilt chain to the Urban District Council as Chairman’s Regalia. It was in memory of Mr Fred Hartley’s service to the Council. Matt Hartley himself was a councillor from 1920 to 1922. The story in the family is that at some point Matt fell out with the council and asked for the chain back. They believe that the reason for the falling out was that the council wouldn’t allow him to lay a water main from Church Street to a building on the hill up to St James’ Square that Matt had built as a public swimming baths. This building is earlier than 1940 and was Phineas Brown’s electrical works before 1922 so there is a mis-match between the story and the dates. However, the building was never used as a swimming bath and Matt dropped his plans for further development up towards the Square. The present owner, Mr Berisford tells me that at one time it was used for ice-making and of course in my time in the 1960s it was the Croft Garage. In 2004 the sign ‘Croft Garage’ can still be seen on the gable end facing Skipton Road.

Walt Fisher was right about the films of the gala. Boris did them in 1951 and 1952 and they were filmed off the wall top in Skipton Road. He said they added music tracks to them and showed them from about four rows down from the back of the stalls. He doesn’t know where these films are now.

Harry and Olive lived at No 4 Ellis Street, Fred and Bertha at No 6 and Rennie at no 8. Harold Hartley was married to Teresa and lived on Ellis Street as well. He looked after the gas engines and liked his pint.

At some point Matt built the first two red brick bungalows up Greenberfield Lane. Boris lives in the first one. There is a lot of wood panelling from the liner Majestic in the house, also doors, painted wood panels and stained and painted glass. Boris said that the chandelier at the top of the stairs into the Majestic Cinema was from the liner as well and agrees with Walt Fisher that the pay box was the old Purser’s office.

Boris said that Arthur Harper started at the Palace Cinema playing the piano for the silent films. At weekends they had a trio. He eventually became secretary and manager for M Hartley and Sons Ltd. Boris isn’t sure whether Matt built the Palace but he certainly had a large interest in it. Barmy Mick bought the Palace off M Hartley and Sons in about 1960 and opened it as a cheap shop. George Formby and Billy Cotton’s Band Show both played at the Palace.

In the late 50s and early 1960s Boris ran what they called ‘Barlick Pop’ at the Majestic, usually on Wednesday evening. In 1959 he had a visit one Friday from three men, John Lennon, Paul McCartney and Brian Epstein. They were touring round looking for bookings and had been at the Imperial Ballroom at Nelson. The manager there had booked them and suggested that they try the Majestic at Barnoldswick. When Boris asked Brian Epstein how much they wanted he said £28. Boris said he couldn’t go higher than £15 because they only charged a shilling for entry. He said he could book The Hollies, Freddy and the Dreamers and Gene Vincent for £5 to £10. They all appeared at the Majestic from time to time. Brian Epstein gave Boris a demo record of ‘Please, please me’ and asked him to play it for the kids and if they liked it he could get in touch about a booking. This record floated round in Boris’s collection for years until one day two lasses who had been helping him asked if they could have it. He gave it to them and in 2000 realised that only 15 of these demo records had been made and one had sold at Christie’s in New York for £85,000!

One more interesting fact. Boris said that one thing he always remembered was the smell of the venue when he opened it up the morning after and went in to sweep up. There were no snack foods in those days and most people brought oranges and peas in pods. He said the place smelled of orange peel.

SCG/22 November 2004
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 05 Dec 2019, 10:21

I know this is an original article from 2004 but you really should edit up the last paragraph to reflect the correct historical record.

The following is copied from other references to this inaccuracy on the site.


Here are the facts regarding Brian Epstein and the Beatles and the "Please Please Me" reference.

Brian Epstein became the Beatles manager on January 24th 1962 having first met them after a concert at the Cavern Club in November of 1961. Interesting that Boris says he met them in 1959. If he did it would certainly not have been with Epstein. According to various sources, "Please Please Me" was recorded as a demo by Parlophone on November 26th 1962 and about 200 copies were made for distribution to clubs and DJ's. A good example was catalogued for sale on the Parlogram Website in October 2011 with an asking price of £2,500. A bit of showman's licence and romancing going on with Boris I reckon, makes a good tale though."

After the original demo pressings of the single "Please Please Me" it became the title track of the Beatles first studio album which was recorded in a single day. Copies of the associated single then ran into the thousands. "Love Me Do" was actually the début single from the group which was released on 5th October 1962.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 06 Dec 2019, 04:03

You miss the point Ian. This is a record of what Boris said. It's his prime source evidence and you don't edit it, you take it as it comes. Even if a respondent tells you something you know for certain is wrong, you may question further but you don't dispute it. Any editing comes in analysis of the evidence. It stays as it is! All your objections were aired at the time on the site.

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Boris reminds us that public buildings in the town were using electricity long before mains electricity reached us i the early 1920s. This pic is in the cellar of the Co-op central building in Albert Road. They had a large gas engine driving a generator, almost certainly a dynamo for DC current but I have no evidence for that.

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Berry's saw mill at Sough Had line shafting that was driven by this gas engine which was unique in the area because once started on town's gas it was switched over to their own gas generator fuelled by sawdust. This ran until the sawmill finished. There was another unique feature at the sawmill, all the shafting was under the floor. The only instance of this I ever found.

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Newton Pickles in the LTP tells us that many small businesses like chip shops had small gas engines to drive things like the potato peeling machine. Arthur Entwistle says his father had a gas engine in the front room at their house on the Croft. He used it to drive a workshop making wooden toys from waste wood like butter boxes.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 06 Dec 2019, 09:47

Stanley wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 04:03
You miss the point Ian. This is a record of what Boris said. It's his prime source evidence and you don't edit it, you take it as it comes. Even if a respondent tells you something you know for certain is wrong, you may question further but you don't dispute it. Any editing comes in analysis of the evidence. It stays as it is! All your objections were aired at the time on the site.
But if you perpetrate the misinformation in a regurgitated post knowing that it is not factual despite the historical record presented previously. New readers may not have the luxury of reading the original rebuttal when posted or the corrections in three other threads on the site. Hence a fourth correction.

"I have in my hand a piece of paper that guarantees peace in our time". That was a bending of the truth that had a somewhat more serious outcome. Not in the same league of course but no different in my view.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 07 Dec 2019, 05:10

You are entitled to your opinion Ian but so am I. I never edit Prime Source on principle.

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Boris Hartley's bungalow on Greenberfield Lane.

I was asked once to write an essay on housing in Barlick and one of the points I made was that because of the decline in the textile industry and population after 1920, apart from some inter war infills and council housing after WW2 there had been virtually no addition to the housing stock. Boris's bungalow is an example of the former and due to lax planning regulations, Accrington brick was allowed as a building material. Nothing wrong with the bungalow, indeed, as an example of the genre it is a fine example of 1930s design but at the same time brick buildings do not sit well in our townscape. My pet hate is the fire station!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Christian » 07 Dec 2019, 23:42

I've made a minor pact with myself to walk with the dogs to any local historical place at least once a week.

Tonight we took the car up onto the moor and went for a walk round Ransable Hill looking for the source of Carletons beck. The dogs duly found Ransable well in search of a quick drink and then fell into Frozen well which supplies Elslack.

What peaked my curiosity on this is reading from "Rachel Naylor - Carleton with an E", that the monks from Barnoldswick used to baptise people in Ransable Well. It must have something to it to walk 5 miles to dip someone when much good water passed through Barlick

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 08 Dec 2019, 02:56

It saved the good people of the area walking to Barlick and back Christian. They could ill afford the time, the monks could. Walking once a week with a purpose is good but the daily half hour walk in all weathers is the one that really does you good! You're doing the right thing, nothing like fresh air and gentle walking to ease the mind and encourage deep thinking. And you don't need Lycra!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by plaques » 08 Dec 2019, 09:52

Down at the swimming pool saturday morning one of the regulars said I must get back quick to take the dog out. Knowing he had lost his dog some months ago I said "have you got another?" He said No, its one down the street which I take out each morning and it could see me as I passed its window, must get back or it'll be really upset. Now there's a good man.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 09 Dec 2019, 04:35

I agree with you P. My daughter lost her two dogs and so far hasn't done anything about replacing them. She said that it didn't feel right walking without a dog so I suggested she walk a neighbour's dog and get the advantages of the exercise without the responsibility of keeping the animal. That's yet to resolve itself.
That reminds me of the way many farm dogs were kept in the past. Chained up outside for most of the day, fed on Uveco (Cooked flaked Maize and in itself a forgotten corner) and milk, entirely inappropriate, they had a miserable life and I always felt sorry for them. In contrast, I am too soft on dogs but happy with the results and I can live with the fact because they are happy souls!
The forgotten corner that springs to mind is Dick Allen who farmed Sandiford. He was a well known trainer and source of good dogs and many people took 'difficult' dogs to him to see if he could straighten them up. I remember he had one that was very aggressive and he used to take it down to the house of an old lady who lived near Barrowford bridge. She had bad asthma and used to send most of her day sat in a chair in her front doorway next to the pavement. The dog was on a short chain next to her and every time it showed any aggression to a passer by the dotted it on the head with a heavy stick! It worked in the end. His own dog was almost human, he would tell it to bring the cows in for milking and it would unbolt the gate, open it, bring the cows in and close and bolt the gate behind it. I've watched it do that many a time.
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