FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 30 Jan 2020, 04:55

Today's forgotten corner isn't Barlick, it was triggered by mention of the M62 earlier today. Have a look at THIS website, nothing remarkable so far.
Go to THIS map and you'll see that the farm sits in between the two carriage ways of the M62. It wasn't supposed to be like that, the original planned route envisaged buying the farm, demolishing the buildings and going straight on. However the old bloke who farmed there refused to sell. The planners assumed he was holding out for more money but they were mistaken, he simply wasn't going to move. All legal avenues were explored to force him out but in the end he won and the two carriage ways had to be diverted round the farm and an access road put in. This is where White Faced Woodland Sheep have their business.
I've always liked this story which shows the little guy doesn't always lose out. It deserves to be remembered.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 31 Jan 2020, 05:04

Image

For Cloggy!

The branch line to Barlick was more than just a useful way of travelling, it was in many ways essential in a wider sense in that the Manchester Men from the mills could catch an early train and be on the Exchange floor in Manchester by 09:00 and start of business. As they waited for the train at Barlick, office boys from their mills ran down to give them the latest orders that had come in by the special early morning post so they arrived on 'change with their orders for yarn to hand, they had worked out the quantities needed on their way in the train. They were also able to take cloth orders from the merchants. This immediate response to trade and the fact that the 'change had standard contracts which contained coal and labour price clauses meant that they could work on very small margins and this made the trade very efficient. A good man had his own network and gained much valuable market intelligence. All this a direct result of good transport communications.
However, a system that worked so well when trade was buoyant later proved to be its Achille's heel. As competition increased for the smaller volume of orders these historic tight margins meant that unless the order book was full, the fixed costs of running the mill couldn't be covered and this was a large part of the growing decline after the re-stocking boom after the Great War ended in 1920. What had been a supremely efficient system worked against an industry that was to entrenched in its ways to change strategies.
A very hard lesson and one we face again today with global trade declining.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 01 Feb 2020, 06:44

Image

Ken Wilson's drawing of William (Billycock) Bracewell. It is reputed that there is an oil painting and I suspect that Ken saw it and copied it.
I was reminded of this by mention of the Herder's pub in Mystery Objects. On several occasions I have had tantalising snippets of evidence that a portrait in oils existed of Billycock. I never got to the bottom of this even though I tried. The nearest I got to it was that it was on Colne Road! Add to this the fact that I had already heard of the existence of another portrait, or was it the same one, that hung in the Herder's pub because Billycock was a regular there. This fits with something that Stephen Pickles told me just before he died when he was in what he called 'God's Waiting Room', a care home at Colne. He said that Billycock was a rake in his early years and had numerous illegitimate children, I think it was Stephen that told me about the connection with the Herders. Bear in mind that there was intense rivalry amongst the early manufactures and what Stephen told me was passed down to him and could very easily be embroidered gossip! However, there is almost always a nugget of truth in evidence like this no matter how improbable.
Some loose ends never get cleared up and become forgotten corners. I am not sure what this one comes under, perhaps work in progress! You never know what might turn up.

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As an example of evidence of surprising facets of Billycock's life, this early photograph is almost certainly by him, at least that's the story in the family. Without this you would never have suspected that he had photography as a hobby.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 02 Feb 2020, 04:45

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This image of twisters at Butts Mill in about 1880 could also be by Billycock I think.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 03 Feb 2020, 04:33

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This came to mind yesterday. Amen Corner.

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Look for Higher Lee at the bottom of the map. Almost certainly quarry men's cottages. See Jack Platt in the LTP, he used to live there.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 04 Feb 2020, 04:06

Today's forgotten corner is all in the mind. One thing I learned when interviewing old people for the LTP was that the first session was almost always non-productive. Lot's of "Sorry I can't remember". However when you went back to do the second session you almost always got "I've been thinking about ***** and I remembered this....". All of a sudden the informant became animated and productive. I can't remember a case where this didn't apply. It was as though you had triggered deep processes in their brains and it was quite amazing what could ensue.
I raised this matter at the time and said that it should be considered as a therapy in care homes. It sounds too easy but I can assure you it works and once triggered you got a flood of memory.
Sceptics asked me how I could be sure they weren't just trying to please me and were making it up as they went along. While this is of course a possibility what I found was that as the interviews progressed you could make very accurate judgements by comparing what others said on the same subject. I came to the conclusion eventually that you always start from the point where you believe what was being said and only revised when you had proof from other sources that there was a problem. I can't remember a single instance where this proved to be the case.
Martha gave my talk at Carleton College the title "Oral History, sound evidence or folk myth", brilliant! I believe it's sound evidence and the lesson is talk to old people and listen to what they have to say. That way you get the benefit of their experience in life and it is very rewarding.
If you are lucky enough to have an old person in the family, talk to them and listen. You will never regret it!

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Tizer » 04 Feb 2020, 10:47

I found this image in a book about canals. The original was poor quality. `Entering Foulridge Tunnel without a permit'.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 05 Feb 2020, 04:37

Nice one Tiz! Another little snippet. That was a fairly hefty fine in 1921.
I've always been interested in the public Notice. There used to be a telegraph pole on Higher Lane that had a cast iron notice on it. "It is an offence to throw stones at the telegraphs'. A famous one that was made by The Royal Label factory in London stated "It is an offence to throw stones at this notice".
I saw a litter bin yesterday that had a notice glued to it placed there recently "This bin is for dog waste and litter only" it also had a serial number for the bin. Money has been spent on this! What else would you put in a litter bin? Overkill I think. Amazing what the bureaucratic mind gets up to in a slack period!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 05 Feb 2020, 07:41

Stanley wrote:
05 Feb 2020, 04:37
I saw a litter bin yesterday that had a notice glued to it placed there recently "This bin is for dog waste and litter only" it also had a serial number for the bin. Money has been spent on this! What else would you put in a litter bin? Overkill I think. Amazing what the bureaucratic mind gets up to in a slack period!
Not so long ago there was confusion over putting dog waste into 'litter' bins, I presume the notice would clear that up. Not sure why it would have a serial number though, unless it's for members of the public to report that it needs emptying.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 05 Feb 2020, 08:39

True but that had already been cleared up by another set of notices on ordinary litter bins that it was acceptable waste.
A bit of history as I am aware of it. Some years ago dog waste bins were emptied separately and the contents sent away for incineration. That ended, presumably a cost-saving measure and I took the trouble at the time to call the relevant department and they told me that dog waste could be put in any litter bin as it was regarded as normal litter.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 05 Feb 2020, 09:38

The notices are an effort to stop folk picking it up and then hanging it in trees and other such disgusting practices. Never understood the metality of folk that do that. :surprised:
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Tizer » 05 Feb 2020, 10:54

We still have bins here that are for dog waste only. While walking recently I saw a woman pick up her dogs doings in a plastic bag and then drop it in someone's black wheelie bin.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 06 Feb 2020, 04:38

An old Forgotten Corner reared its head again this morning in another to[pic. Thanks to Cathy for asking a question about the other Barnoldswick near Ingleton. I looked for a web article to give her more information and discovered that not only was there a link with our Barlick and the Ingleton Coalfield but there was one I didn't know about with Old Coates Mill as well.

Image

Old Coates Mill in 1890 shortly before it was demolished.

I have written elsewhere at length about the fact that it was Billycock Bracewell's Coates born cousins that ran the mill and failed there. I believe partly because of Billycock manipulating the water supply but also because they were bad business men.
However, this morning when I found a link for Cathy I found that a group of mine researchers had published a book on the Ingleton coalfield in 2005 of which I was unaware. In the book they make it clear that Bracewell bought Wilson Wood Colliery on the coalfield and moved the engine from Old Coates to the mine in 1867, this makes complete sense and looks like trustworthy evidence. Needless to say I have found a copy of the book and ordered it.
My original knowledge was from and earlier and much shorter book on the coalfield and that never mentioned the engine.
Just shows that the evidence moves on over the years and eventually more light is shed on the subject if you keep looking! LIDAR and Castle View was a good example! Forgotten Corners are fascinating, keep digging Stanley!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 07 Feb 2020, 04:31

Loose ends always bother me. I get hints at times about things and yet they never come to fruition. Easy to say there is nothing in them but I have learned over the years that there is always a nugget of truth buried in what seems to be a myth or bum information
One example is that I was told of a cellar at the bottom of Lamb Hill down into Walmsgate that had line shafting in it and a hint it was used for sawing wood, possibly by water power. This was a chance remark many years ago and I never got to the bottom of it. It nags me, I have an idea in the back of my head it could be right but it remains a forgotten corner. One of these days....
Another similar clue is that I was once told that White Lightning was made in the abandoned gas house at Old Coates Mill when it stood derelict from about 1865 to 1890. That could be true because I have court evidence of illegal distilling in the area later. In the 1990s I was given some illegal spirit distilled in Barlick and still have a drop left. I got my mate John Martinez to taste test it and he said it was very good and if matured properly would result in good brandy. He said that in France it would be called Marc and was made from the pomace (skins, seeds etc left after grapes were pressed for wine. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this was still happening so perhaps I am wrong in calling it a forgotten corner.
(Remember Maigret, George Simenon's fictional detective? (LINK). One line used frequently was when he and his oppos went into a bar at Les Halles and he always ordered 'a Marc'. Funny how these things stick in your head!)
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 07 Feb 2020, 07:07

I had a trip to the Lancashire Record Office yesterday to accompany a friend who was on a mission. I looked at a couple of items of local interest, one of them being an 1833 sale notice for The New Inn in Kelbrook. It is described as a modern building, in the occupation of Robert Blezard, owned by John Thirkell.
I can only think that this was the original name of the Scotchman's Arms which then became the Craven Heifer. The toll road came through to that point in the mid 1820's, so it makes sense that the inn would be built on the new road around that time. Any thoughts?

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 07 Feb 2020, 07:27

I think you are quite right Wendy although I have never completely endorsed the theory because I was once told that it was Old Stone Trough. It would be nice to see a definitive answer.

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Here's the 1853 OS. It is named as 'Wilson's Arms' so that reinforces your theory.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 07 Feb 2020, 08:00

The Craven Heifer is the Scotchman's Arms on that map, so I suppose both would be newly built for the new road...... could be either! More digging necessary!

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 07 Feb 2020, 08:02

It's interesting isn't it. Keep an open mind and watch for that stray bit of evidence popping up!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 08 Feb 2020, 03:54

Forgive me for going back to an old hobby horse of mine. The fact that so many genealogists have fumed about for years. This is the extinction of a woman's maiden name when she marries. I have always thought it is such a shame that the practice of adding the maiden name to the first child's given names isn't common practice. You do come across it but it is by no means universal. This, plus the fact that many eldest sons were automatically given the father's forename has always seemed to me to be evidence of the patriarchal hegemeony that dominated and still dominates many marriages.
I was partially tainted by this tradition as I was named after my father's brother, Stanley but that's never bothered me much. My brother was given my father's name, Leslie. Dorothy my sister was given my father's sister's name. I remember when Janet had married into a Greek family and was under pressure about her first child's name she decided to rebel and consulted me about a good Pagan name. I suggested Bridget or Holly and that's how she got Holly Alexandra.
Time for more matriarchal influence I think!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 09 Feb 2020, 07:14

Barlick is a stone-built town. As one writer once said about Lothersdale, the houses were all strong enough to withstand cannon balls! This was based on the fact that we sit on a very good strata of millstone Grit rock which in some of the quarries as almost completely free of beds. In other words we were never going to be any good at producing flagstones but were pre-eminent in setts, building stone, sawn stone for cills lintels and stiles and for industry, in good large tones for steam engine beds. The limestone to the North of the town was mainly used for burning for lime except when the canal company was building and used the output from Rainhall Rock in canal works and bridge building. The only exception I know to this is the use of the limestone as building stone in the Barnoldswick Branch line, a reminder of this still exists in the Pioneer car park in the large breast wall on the Eastern side.

Image

The original wall still in place in 1979 before the new Pioneer store was built.

We have good evidence on the site for many aspects of the quarrying industry in the town. See Jack Platt's evidence in the LTP. He worked in the quarries for many years and describes not only the general work but stone sawing, he worked on the saws. Later he drove motor wagons delivering stone from the quarries and also described the boats carrying road setts into Lancashire. All these are forgotten corners now, the last person I know off who dealt in local stone was Gibson at Park Close Quarry where for a while he appeared to have a market for large individual stones. That trade didn't last long and generated many complaints about the road traffic on Salterforth lane.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 10 Feb 2020, 04:56

Image

The milk stand at Yarlside Farm on the Bracewell to Gisburn road. Some reading this won't know what their purpose was, it has become a forgotten corner. They were where 12 Gallon kits of milk were placed at the same height as the bed of the wagon that collected them to facilitate the daily pick up of fresh milk production which was taken to the local dairies for processing. There ware many of these and many wagons engaged in the collection and transport of milk.
My point this morning is slightly different. The more accurately the driver placed his wagon the easier it was to collect the milk efficiently. Typically the side of the wagon was within an inch of the stand and stopped in the right place next to the empty kits on the wagon. The same applied when tipping the milk at the dairy, all the kits had to be rolled off easily onto the conveyor which took them into the dairy. The point is that a driver on milk collection either became an expert in wagon placement or was knackered half way though the day. It was a wonderful training ground for drivers, many of whom moved on into other driving jobs taking these skills with them. Using mirrors alone they could place their vehicles accurately and it showed. I have heard transport managers lamenting that many modern drivers don't have these skills.
Another field where things have changed is placing and securing payloads on the flat. In the days of flat wagons you learned this quickly or got lots of grief. In this respect driving tramp was the ideal training ground. You had different loads every day and had to become an expert in all of them. Today the norm is for container bodies, often specialising in one type of cargo and these skills also have faded. I saw a well sheeted and roped load on a wagon a few weeks ago in Barlick and it struck me then how rare it was. The peak was possibly stacking eight rounds (0r more if there were no low bridges) of bales of hay or straw (Hay was the most difficult) on a flat and delivering it still square and secure.

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At Paradise Farm, Horton. I rest my case.

Image

The peak as far as I was concerned was learning how to reverse a 60ft wagon and trailer. Unless you have done it you can't understand what the difficulties were and I won't try to explain. It took a while but I cracked it and my point is that the foundation of being able to master that was picking kits of milk up all those years earlier.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 10 Feb 2020, 09:08

I have seen this picture many times of your wagon in the Coop car park but have only just noticed a feature you may not have mentioned. Is that a "guzunder" on the dash in front of the steering wheel?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Tizer » 10 Feb 2020, 10:21

It's his teapot. Well Bleached of course! :smile:

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 11 Feb 2020, 03:14

Neither I'm afraid, I don't know what it is, most likely paperwork! Incidentally, the pic is outside Richard's farm, Yew Tree at West Marton.

Image

I went back to the neg and zoomed in as far as I could. I think that what looks like a teapot handle is a sticker on the windscreen. Can't remember what it was.
By the way, I never bleach or clean the insides of teapots. Tea tastes much better from a seasoned pot!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 11 Feb 2020, 04:35

Image

Toothing stones on the end of the row on Burdock Hill at the bottom of Salterforth lane in about 1980. I seem to remember they are gone now.
There used to be many examples in Barlick of arrested development of rows of houses which happened when the building boom stopped with the advent of the Great War and the start of decline in the cotton trade. Prior to that there had been continuous development, much of it financed by well off families who had children working in the mills and had the benefit of their wages. Remember that in old age your only defence against the workhouse was either the support of your children or income from property built in the good days. This was the era af the corner shop on the end of the row which provided a job for the woman of the house and after that a useful source of income.

Image

Here's a good example on Hill Street.

At the same time many families had savings invested with the mill companies as banks were a relatively new institution and the companies were trusted. Many had shares as well and I remember Harold Briggs telling me that when the Calf Hall Shed Company was eventually wound up the owners of many single shares couldn't be traced. Malcolm Steratt the solicitor on Church Street had the job of tidying the situation up, I wonder how many he found? Victor Hedges of Proctors, the Burnley solicitors who acted for many of the shed companies told me that the big problem was that as shareholders died they split up their holdings in the family and that eventually, as dividends started to fall, it cost more in administration and postage to send dividends out than they were worth.
All these are forgotten corners now.....
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