MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

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Stanley
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MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

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MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

One thing we know about the Norman invaders is that they were smart cookies and pretty good at administration especially in matters of property ownership. So it's a bit surprising that when we look closely at the grant of the Manor of Barnoldswick we find some quite fundamental problems. The first one crops up when the Perambulation was done to fix the boundaries of the gift to the Cistercians. Remember that in those days there were no maps and so it was essential for the boundaries of a piece of land to be 'perambulated', in simple terms the Lord walked round with his scribes and physically followed the boundary which they write down as they progressed.
We are lucky because as this was part of the legal title to the manor, the record of the perambulation survives. The bit that interests us is : 'By the stream called Blackbroc (Black Brook, County Brook) and up the moor to Gailmers (now submerged under Whitemoor reservoir) and so directly to Ellesagh (roughly were Lister Well is) across Blacko moor and up Oxgill to Alainsete (the summit of Burnt Moor) and thence to the ancient ditch between Middop and Coverdale (the line of what is now called Coal Pit Lane)'. Incidentally, whenever you see a summit named 'seat', this is where the party paused during a perambulation while the scribes drew a depiction of the land around, their version of a map. Percy's Seat above Skipton is another one.
All well and good you might think but there is a big problem. When the party reached Blacko Hill they should have turned right along the Black Dyke because this was the boundary between the Royal Forest of Blackburnshire and Barnoldswick. Remember we were always a frontier manor. By going forward to Oxgill and back towards Weets, de Lacy included Admergill which was not his to give away. This mistake led to a court case which lasted 200 years until in 1340, after a court case lasting over 13 years between Queen Isabella and the Abbey of Kirkstall, it was judged to be the property of Kirkstall. Despite this Isabella retained Admergill in the royal forest and another court case started in 1374. By 1395 Richard II had enough confidence to grant Admergill to one William, son of Robert de Redcliff as a vaccary (stock Farm). There is more but we have flagged up the problem.
There was a separate problem. Henry de Lacy was not the chief lord of the grant he had given, which he held of Hugh Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, by a yearly payment which had lapsed for many years, and about which de Lacy had said nothing to the Abbot of Fountains. At a later period this led to trouble, and the temporary dispossession of the monks of their lands in Barlick.
Call me suspicious if you will but there is something funny going on here. What we have to do is try to work out what it was.

Image

Henry should have turned right here along the Black Dyke.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by yungfil »

Hi, Does anyone know if there is a translation of the Chartulary of Kirkstall Abbey? I am researching my family history; in this case Richard de Merclesden, Master Forester of Blackburnshire, including the Chace of Penhull (as it was then) from about 1327 to 1345. He was involved as part of this dispute as he and his men demanded puture from the Abbey; which caused the Abbot to appeal. I have a copy of Thoresby Society Vol. 8. The coucher book of the Cistercian abbey of Kirkstall, in the West Riding of the county of York. 1904. Edited by W. T. Lancaster and W. Paley Baildon. But the transcript is in Latin with only brief English commentary.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

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I hit the same problem with the Bolton Priory papers. I bought a Latin Primer and a very good book on archaic Latin, 'Revised Medieval Latin Word List' by R E Latham. Published by OUP 1999. I'd recommend it......
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Whyperion »

does this help, it appears more from the mid 1200c, and has OCR of the latin, which Google translate, etc might have a stab at http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/01910001 - Cartulary Title: The Coucher Book of the Cistercian Abbey of Kirkstall 1234

there are mentions in this 1839 book of churches etc in the diocese of York and Ripin Google Books Kirkstall search which also mentions The Manor Of Barnoldswick in the Parish of Gikirke in Yorkshire was a parcel of the Duchy of Lancaster and never belonged to the Abbey of Kirkstall , and therefore was not tithe-free.

So, if lands owned by the Abbey, no tithes to the Abbey ( they can assess or charge tenants what they like ?), but if not owned by the Abbey the land owner (?occupier paid tithes - 10% on the yield, or 10% on the capital value or assessed annual value ? - where tithes also payable to the local church if paying to to an Abbey ?)
Last edited by Whyperion on 31 Jan 2017, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Whyperion »

Whyperion wrote:does this help, it appears more from the mid 1200c, and has OCR of the latin, which Google translate, etc might have a stab at http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/01910001 - Cartulary Title: The Coucher Book of the Cistercian Abbey of Kirkstall 1234

there are mentions in this 1839 book of churches etc in the diocese of York and Ripin Google Books Kirkstall search which also mentions The Manor Of Barnoldswick in the Parish of Gikirke in Yorkshire was a parcel of the Duchy of Lancaster and never belonged to the Abbey of Kirkstall , and therefore was not tithe-free.
You will have to remind me where the Henry De Lacy original Abbey in Barnoldswick was located, and where the Original (Saxon?) Church in Barnoldswick was.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Stanley »

Depending on how you interpret 'ownership' you are wrong about Kirkstall not 'owning' the Manor of Barnoldswick. de Lacey's grant may have been flawed but he certainly believed he had gifted it to Fountains and it passed from them to the monks who founded the original daughter house in Barlick which in turn became Kirkstall.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Whyperion »

It looks like (I dont have time to research or check) that the book quotes from contentions made in court as to the applicability of tithes being payable, amongst other things. I had not noted that the grant of land was not directly to the Monks at Barnoldswick but to the mother house for the estabilishment of the facility in the area.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Stanley »

Important to note that when you get to the root of the matter, in the 11th and 12th centuries nobody, even the highest barons, 'owned' land. It was all granted by the King and could be reclaimed at any time. So it's dangerous to talk about ownership at this time. This didn't change until the 16th century.
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Stanley »

Bumped and image restored. Still an interesting puzzle but I'm too old to be the researcher. I hand the task on to others....
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Re: MORE DE LACY PROBLEMS

Post by Stanley »

I still issue the disclaimer. My serious researching days are over but there is a mystery here that could well be interesting. Another matter that I have mentioned elsewhere is that the foundation date for Sawley Abbey coincides almost exactly with Barlick. Why this urge to found abbeys and monasteries?
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