WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

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Stanley
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WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

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WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

During my research into our local history I have always admired the way the women coped with their lives. Because of their biological disadvantages they bore multiple children, worked in the mill and the home and often survived into their 70s. This despite a general view that housework was a woman's job and any husbands who did their share were often derided by their workmates for being 'Mary Anns'.
I've written on this subject before and I think most of you know what my views are so I shan't repeat myself. However, what has raised this matter in my mind again is the way women are being treated in the latest round of rearrangements to pension rights brought in by the present administration. These are horribly complicated and I don't fully understand them, some women are even unclear as to when they will get the pension but one thing is clear, women are going to have to work longer and in some cases will have their entitlement reduced or even removed where the woman has no employment history. It was suggested recently in Parliament that those who were to be disadvantaged should be informed in writing but as far as I can see the response was the usual 'we are looking into this'.
I have always held the view that allowing women to take the pension earlier than men was a simple recognition of the fact that they have more complicated lives than men. On the whole they are weaker and have the additional burden of child-bearing. I know that in these days of 'equality' this is seen as an old fashioned concept but you can't argue against the facts. How many men would carry on working if they were carrying a child? Recognising this in terms of pension entitlement would seem to be reasonable and fair but where is the evidence of fairness where women are concerned? You don't need me to detail the imbalance that still exists in society and it's high time that the rhetoric about equality was matched on the ground in real life.
There are plenty of things to worry about in this modern world. You would think that well into the 21st century some of the most glaring inequalities in society would have been addressed if not eliminated but in the case of Women's Rights it would appear that nothing has changed, at least in the minds of those responsible for the present legislation. I know that the question of pensions has been ignored for far too long and something has to be done to ensure continuity into the future but the measures as they stand at the moment look to me to be grossly unfair to women. We are told we are one of the richest economies in the world, perhaps we should be asking where all the money is going..... At the moment we appear to be regressing to the bad old days of 19th century laissez faire.

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Are these workers less entitled than their male counterparts?
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

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I find it quite telling about society today that my article on old age generated a flood of response but this one about Women's Rights has gone down like a lead balloon.... Am I alone in worrying about this?
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by PanBiker »

Not if you talk to Sally, she is one of the women who, by accident of birth to the tune of a couple of weeks and this governments moving of the goalposts has been swindled out of 6 years of pension. She is not happy, having been told at 15 years of age that if she worked hard she would retire with a pension at 60. Well she has acceded to her half of the bargain but now finds that despite having the required number of years of NI credits to her name she can not draw a pension until she is 66. That is a year after me and she is a year younger than I am. It equates to around a £36,000 deficit in expected income. Ask me if she is angry, Cameron, Osborne and our useless MP haven't even bothered to answer why she has been robbed of her pension. It's not a benefit but a right bought and paid for over the last 45 years.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Wendyf »

I was one of the lucky ones, being born in 1950 I just lost out on a month.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Tizer »

Mrs Tiz has been affected but her younger sister much more so.

There are still people out there championing women's rights. A different aspect is discussed by Janice Turner writing in The Times this weekend. Besides being a journalist (and a feisty Northern lass) she is a trustee of an organisation that helps women affected by prostitution. She describes how France is set to become the 5th European country to change its laws on prostitution so that the user is breaking the law rather than the provider. The other countries are Scandinavian and their experience is that prostitution fell dramatically after they changed the law. In France there has been resistance to the change by a group of men who believe they are losing their rights to access to prostitutes - and one of them is the lawyer who defended Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Tripps »

"Are these workers less entitled than their male counterparts?"

No - of course not - but did they actually earn less? Wasn't weaving mainly piece work? This is a genuine call for information. :smile:

PS. DYOR reveals Piece rate lists

It's unbelievably complicated, and the bibliography includes 'Bancroft' by one S C Graham. I'll take a look - as wisely, I have secured a copy. :smile:
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Whyperion »

I suppose there are a number of muddles, in many countries women, simply for being women , dont have rights in the way we would recognise them, thats wrong
Its taken probably a couple of hundred years to get to the generally theoretically equality of women vs men in workplace, and elsewhere. Problem is, that only one gender (at present) can carry, and give birth to , children. Socially that would normally be quite important, and in many cultures, whilst (literally) the men call the sho souts, it is women, individually, or in collective groups , really run the whole show.
Now we throw in the pensions 'problem', yes , handled wrongly, but I can show plenty of men who died before collecting any pension, often in their 50s,with heart conditions, with a mix of hard labourers to office types, at least the benefits system does provide basic support for their widows and children.
My suggestion, which may sound as if its a bit 'sexist' is to realise the near recent past that much of our voluntary glue from charity shop workers, WRVS, St Johns/Red Cross nurses etc has been effectively filled by the 55 to 70 year old women. With this, extra entitlements to earlier pensions could be given for those that sign up for 24 weekly hours of community volunteering, tax /nhi free, from the age of 58 to 67 , this would also take a number of older women out of the paid workforce, giving some oppertunities for younger unemployed persons.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Stanley »

Good response, thanks to all of you. Nice find David, I didn't know about it..... Someone has been taking notice.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

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Well I've had a quick look in 'Bancroft' but can't find any reference to pay rates for men and women. I the recalled that I had a small book called 'The Lancashire Weavers Union' which is a history of the Union published on its one hundreth anniversary in 1984. More detail, but still no answer to my question.

Isn't life funny - the bookmark in this book, was a menu from Harry Ramsden's chippy at Guisely, and must date from my visit in the mid 1990's. I had F & C at the new Ramsden's in Newmarket last week, and wondered where my souvenir was. Now it just falls into my lap. Wonderful. :smile: Worth noting that mushy peas used to be a side order at 65p, but tea was included, whereas now it is the other way round.

Anyway here's a couple of extracts which caught my eye. There are a couple of mentions of Barnoldswick, but not enough detail to shed light on Iain' s query about the history of the office in the town.



Prior to the cotton famine it was possible for a weaver to earn around six shillings a week per loom. The average number of looms at the time was 2.4, so average earnings would be fourteen shillings and sixpence. Within such an average, however, considerable differences existed. . Some men weavers with a tenter managed six looms, and there are reports of women working four or even five looms in Burnley. Families of cotton workers according to the Factory Inspectors, were receiving a total income of £5 a week from the mil. Individual earnings however were reported to be low, and one of the claims of the the numerous male weavers was that poverty forced them to send their wives out to work.


Most of the weavers were women and while stories of young teenage girls with high incomes indulging in whims of fashion were reported, so too were stories of suicides as a result of bullying overlookers. Overpowering heat pervaded the weaving shed in the summer, while on winter mornings, work began in freezing temperatures. Both Summer and Winter however saw weavers' clothes dripping wet as more and more humidity was introduced. Steaming in weaving sheds was becoming more prevalent because as a reaction to foreign competition, employers either turned to making finer cloths or the most inferior goods possible. The inferior goods needed more size and were made from yarn that easily broke, hence more steam injection to raise the level of dampness.

If such conditions didn't destroy the weavers' health, 'shuttle kissing' did. Having to suck the yarn through the shuttle in order to thread it ready for use, the weavers filled their lungs with particles of cotton. A disease known as phthsis resulted from shuttle kissing, but weavers were more aware of the occasions when mould had taken hold of the cotton, and outbreaks of 'weavers' cough' would become epidemic.

Weavers felt oppressed however, not so much from those occasional hazards, but by the method in some mills of recording their wages ona board displayed in the shed. The 'Slate and Board' systemin on its own was perhaps only embarassing for the weavers when their earnings fell below their fellow workers, but managers and overlookers utilised the system to far more effect. comments were written against names calling for improvements and weavers were chastised in front of other operatives. The weavers called this ' driving', and although the Overlookers Society had agreed in 1887 to condemn excessive driving, the individual tackler continued to practise it. Paid like the weaver by the amount of cloth produced, it was in the interest of the overlooker to improve the so-called 'poundage', no matter what the strain on those in charge. Eliza McCartney took her own life in 1901, after suffering abuse for being seven old pence below the average of the shed in her week's earnings


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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by PanBiker »

I got the figure wrong in my post above about Sally's pension deficit. She has just run her pension prediction on the Gov site and on lost pension alone it equates to over £44,000 this does not include the other perks like bus passes and other benefits.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Stanley »

Sally has my sympathy, par for the course in that ordinary people's pensions are governed by the worst set of political policies ever if you discount energy....
David, try page 17 in Bancroft for a gleam of light. The best source of information I know for wage levels is 'The Lancashire Weaver's Story. The history of the Amalgamated Weavers Union'. Masses of figures and the history not only of the Uniform List but subsequent wage agreements.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Tripps »

Good after sales service for your books Stanley. :smile:

It says all piece work - so equal pay for men and women. I had a conversation with 'next door' on this topic and was surprised to find that she had researched the subject in Blackburn for a play she was writing. She found that the high pay for women at the time, was a factor in the equality struggle. It seems that supports the mention above that - 'Most of the weavers were women and while stories of young teenage girls with high incomes indulging in whims of fashion were reported.'

I admire women who take on men on equal terms - the outstanding example was the recently retired jockey Hayley Turner who did what had been said to be impossible, and won against male jockeys at the highest level. I had thought this was the only example, but have since learned that there is full equality in target shooting as well. Have I missed anyone out?
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Wendyf »

Eventing, show jumping & dressage. :smile:
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Stanley »

David, you're right. They still sell steadily......
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

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Wendyf wrote:Eventing, show jumping & dressage. :smile:
Same thing - just posher. :smile:
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

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Bumped and still a topical subject six years later....
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Stanley »

Bumped again. No need to justify why, it's an obvious injustice that still hasn't been addressed.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by PanBiker »

Current status for the WASPI women who were robbed is that they won their high court appeal against the government who deemed the action illegal and the ombudsman for the sector has also said that the government should make reparations for lost income without notice. That was about 18 months to 2 years ago and has just been ignored by the robbers in power, who, to all intents an purposes have spent the brass owed on something more important.
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by Stanley »

And the question I would ask is 'Why is it not illegal for them to do that?'
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Re: WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Post by PanBiker »

Indeed! Probably because they consider themselves Lords of the Universe.
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