DIALECT AND WORD MEANINGS

[LizG]

This has probably been discussed already but ... why cobwebs and not spider webs?

[Cathy]

I think cobwebs are spider webs made in dusty areas.
A bit like my spare room, haha, went in there this morning and saw a dusty spider web around the light fitting and then, and then, and then.... saw the Huntsman Spider in the corner of the ceiling!! Only a baby so I dusted around him then collected him and deposited him in his new home... outside!!

[Stanley]

I like Huntsman spiders, they kill flies!



Liz, Middle English word was 'coppweb' from the Old English 'coppe' meaning spider. Middle Dutch was 'koppe'.

[LizG]

Thank you Stanley.

[Stanley]

The thanks are due to Webster, a good $10 spend!

[Tripps]

Just heard Philip Davies the MP for Shipley on the Daily Politics say -

they are tarnished...(me - please, please, don't say with the same brush!) ... with the same brush.

[Stanley]

Oh God! The number of times I hear similar malapropisms and then immediately forget them but like you I sit there mentally shouting NO!!! Mind you, we have to be careful or we'll end up in Private Eye! Perhaps they didn't read enough comics when they were young....

[Tizer]

There was a lady on the radio the other day claiming she didn't want to be the same as everyone else and didn't follow fashions etc...and yet she kept starting her sentences with "Absolutely!" If that's not following fashion, what is?

I've been reading a 1943 Pelican book on `Minerals in the Service of Industry' (W.R. Jones) and although information in such old books may be partly outdated there are always interesting things that you don't get in modern books. On reading about the element zirconium the author states that it comes from the mineral zircon (zirconium silicate) which can also be used as a gemstone. He says zircon crystals occur in various colours but the colourless variety is known as `jargon' "for while they resemble diamond they, like certain apparently bright phrases, have little value". This prompted me to look up the origin of `jargon' in Collins where I find that its use in the way we normally associate it (specialised or pretentious language) is probably from 14th Century French, "perhaps of imitative origin" as with the word `gargle'. But then there is another entry for `jargon or jargoon', "a golden-yellow, smokey or colourless variety of zircon" and the origin is given as "C18: from French, from Italian giargone, ultimately from Persian zargun referring to the golden colour. Either the Pelican author didn't know his Persian (like me) or he preferred his version of the origin!

[Stanley]

Fascinating Tiz and a good example of how complicated word origins can be. One of the things about Diarmid MacCulloch is that he knows his Greek and Latin and lards the more tortuous passages of explanation about obscure aspects of theology with little vignettes about word origins, which are always surprising. And no, I'm not going to bore you with them!

[Tripps]

" And no, I'm not going to bore you with them!"

I'll have a go then. Just heard that the word 'apologise' is from the Greek 'apologia' which means 'defence'.
Odd that the more usual English usage means to say sorry, which is quite the opposite. So if you are an apologist for something then you defend it - but if you apologise for something you don't. Puzzling.

[Stanley]

Isn't it just! All right, I'll allow myself just one. 'Parish church' is perhaps one of the quintessential English phrases conjuring up images of quiet church yards, trees and mellow stone. I did 'Kirk' and church the other day. Diarmid tells me that 'parish' comes from from the word 'parochia' used in the Eastern church for the territory controlled by a bishop. In the West it became the area controlled by a priest. The West has another word for diocese, the equivalent of the Eastern 'parochia', we use an equivalent word 'see' which derives from a Latin word for chair, 'sedes'.
On a different tack. I heard a lady with a broad Scottish accent use a word that sounded like 'steecher' for what I have always known as a clothes prop, the support used for a heavy washing line. Has anyone heard anything like it?

[Stanley]

Ever heard the expression "Fill your boots!"? I came across an origin for it the other day. Troops used to carry leather bottles called 'boots' because of the material and the shape. The order 'Fill your boots' was given to remind soldiers to fill their water bottles while they could.

[Stanley]

Picked up on 'Tweet of the Day' on R4. The name of the Fulmar comes from Old Norse for 'foul bird' because of it's defence mechanism of vomiting stinking oil for up to a metre. If it hits another bird it can destroy the waterproofing of feathers and so is potentially fatal.

[Belle]

Stanley, could your scottish lady have been referring to a stenter? It's the name I use for my clothes prop as I heard it often in my part of Scotland and thought it much more appropriate as a description of what I was doing to the line, than prop.

This thread brought me back on here as I was reminded of you all at the weekend when I referred to my small granddaughter as being in a brown study, and noone had the slightest clue what I was talking about. i thought to myself, they would know on here!

[plaques]

I thought that stenting was a weavers term for someone who stands in for someone else. Used in a slightly derogatory sense for weavers who waited in line hoping that some poor sole would be late for work.

[Stanley]

P, that's 'tenting' to watch or guard.
Belle, I think you are right and 'stenter' is the name for a modern textile process for stretching cloth after contraction during processing like dyeing or printing. Most likely root is Latin 'extentus' the verb for stretch or extend. Could also be the root for the 'stent' used in heart surgery. The 'tenting frames' used for stretching cloth (and Tenterhooks) after it had contracted during fulling are most likely to be a corruption of 'stenter' rather than the root of tenting or watching. All guesswork of course but it seems to make sense.

[plaques]

Stanley. Only this morning I was thinking Dam it, I've got it wrong. Then thought I'm sure someone will put me right.
Does this make me right all along or am I starting to think like a MP.

[Stanley]

No, you're just human and fallible like the rest of us.....

[Tizer]

Interesting to see the newspapers and the BBC this morning reporting a claim that Jeremy Clarkson used the word nigger during filming and it was then edited out. That doesn't surprise me but what I do find odd is that none of the reports I've seen themselves use nigger but write n-word instead. And yet if you put nigger into the BBC News web site's search box you get plenty of examples of its use up until March this year. Have we suddenly become frightened of using the word? I don't approve of its use in an aggressive derogatory manner but we shouldn't stop using it otherwise. Clarkson was quoting the `Eenie meenie miny moe' nursery rhyme but it's not clear whether he was using it to be offensive to black people or not - and that's the crucial point.

Apparently he's also been in trouble for using the word `slope' and that really threw me. Slope? The BBC web site says: `The BBC Two show's executive producer, Andy Wilman, said: "When we used the word slope in the recent Top Gear Burma Special it was a light-hearted word play joke referencing both the build quality of the bridge and the local Asian man who was crossing it. "It has subsequently been brought to our attention, that the word slope is considered by some to be offensive, for example in Australia and the USA. "If we had known that at the time we would not have broadcast the word in this context and regret any offence caused."' What next I wonder?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/27236363

[Stanley]

They'll ban 'bastard thread' shortly, you see! And as for male and female when talking about fitting.....

[Cathy]

Conscious uncoupling... where do these people come from??

[Pluggy]

Until a few moments ago I didn't know that "slope" was a derogatory comment (Thanks, Tiz ) , its was just something you got on hills. I can't say I'm richer for knowing that......

[Tripps]

Interesting to see the fuss being made about one deliberately mumbled word in a clip which was never transmitted, two years ago. Who was it exactly that was offended by it? Pity they weren't more diligent in there attitude to Jimmy Savile. I can't stand the programme by the way, and never watch it. His family history was interesting though - he was from Yorkshire - the KIlner (jars) family.

[Stanley]

The only alternative use of slope I knew was 'to slope off', make a quiet departure, usually to avoid something unpleasant, like work.
I used a word yesterday and for some reason it struck me how strange it was. 'Quibble'. Webster has no origin beyond the fact that there is an archaic word, 'quib', a jibe.

[Bruff]

WARNING: CONTENT MAY OFFEND

Very interesting Tizer. The Guardian Style Guide makes a point of stating that when it comes to swear words they are never asterixed, as is the case with many newspapers. The f-word, c-word etc are all there is their full 'glory' in The Guardian because their argument is if you are going to use the words, or quote them, in print then do not insult the reader by being coy. I would agree, but as we have no Style Guide I will not use them here.

I think the word 'nigger' is enormously offensive. As is the word 'slope' in a similar context, or 'paki'. There are though some who see all this as 'PC gone mad' or something, though it would be interesting to see whether this applies too to words like 'spastic', 'biff' or 'mong'. Indeed such people would probably view the c-word as very offensive and given that back in the 18th century one could stroll quite happily up Gropec***t Alley in London, there clearly comes a time when words are not acceptable. With respect to 'nigger' it therefore might as well be now.

Richard Broughton