Just signed up again from the old forum. In Gladys Whittaker's book 'Roughlee Hall Fact and Fiction' on page 24 it mentions a dower in the CCR in 1561 between Alice Nutter and her husband Richard.
Has anyone got the original transcript of this? I've looked all over the internet and managed to download what copies of the CCR's I can find, but found nothing of the dower. Suspect it could be in Vol 2 which as of yet I can't find any trace online.
I'm interested in the way Gladys Whitaker uses this to connect to the Whitaker Family of Huncoat.
It would be nice for once and for all to try and work out if Alice Nutter's maiden name really was Whitaker.
Alice Nutter in the Clitheroe Court Rolls
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Stanley
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Re: Alice Nutter in the Clitheroe Court Rolls
Welcome back Mick. Sorry I can't help you, I think John Clayton is your man.... I've mailed him to alert him.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
-
Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 90882
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
- Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.
Re: Alice Nutter in the Clitheroe Court Rolls
Nutter (Alice O’Dick O’Miles)
In 1561 John Hargreaves of Roughlee, William Smith of Roughlee and Nicholas Robinson of Roughlee, at the request of Miles Nutter, his wife Elizabeth and his son Richard surrendered half of a farm property in Roughlee (on rental of £0: 22s: 2d per annum) to the use of John Smith (son of William Smith of Roughlee), John Smith (son of William Smith of Pighole in Briercliffe), James and John Whittaker (sons of Giles Whittaker of Huncote, the brothers of Alice Nutter). The right of John Nutter (son of Miles) was reserved.1 The intent of the surrender was that the share in the farm was to go to the use of Miles Nutter and Elizabeth his wife and after their deaths a quarter share was to go to ‘Alice Nutter, now wife of the said Richard Nutter for life, in the name of her dower.’ The remainder of the property was to go to Richard and his heirs. This was possibly the farm on which John Smith built Roughlee Old Hall.
Who, then, was Alice, wife of Dick O’ Miles? The Whitaker family had been in the Padiham area since the thirteenth century and eventually split into three main branches; the Whitakers of Holme-in-Cliviger, the Whitakers of Broadclough and the family of Simonstone. Attached to this latter branch was Gyles Whitaker of Huncoat, he had been constable of Huncoat four times, greave of Huncoat in 1556 and was of sufficient importance to have been only one of two men to have appeared on the Muster Roll. Alice was one of Gyles Whitaker’s five children, the others being the eldest, James, John, Agnes and Joan. There is no surprise in the fact that the Roughlee Nutters and the Huncoat Whitakers became related; although some five miles in distance the Simonstone Whitakers were continually trading lands within Pendle Forest.
In this capacity they rubbed shoulders with almost all of the landowners hereabouts and when Gyles
saw an opportunity to marry his daughter, Alice, off to the ageing Richard Nutter, of Roughlee,
he jumped at the chance. Just what Alice might have thought about the matter is another story!
One of the most commonly held beliefs in the Pendle Witch legend is that Alice Nutter found herself being prosecuted because she had been in an acrimonious boundary dispute over Roger Nowell’s neighbouring lands. Unfortunately this piece of folklore does not appear to hold water. Many of the local farmers held lands bordering onto Roughlee at one time or another, amongst these was another family named Nowell, from Fence, who were often seen to be involved in land transactions around Roughlee; this was often in their duties as acting forest stewards. That Roger Nowell and the Simonstone Whitakers were often at contretemps with each other over lands in the Read area is well documented; these disputes often ran for generations and it is this link between Alice Nutter and Roger Nowell that might have triggered the folk-memory.
Alice Nutter did not in fact ever live at Roughlee Old Hall (as legend has had it for some 150 years), her home was on the Crowtrees estate some half a mile to the west. Nor did she have the riches and estates that Potts would have us believe, she was wealthier than her companions in the Well Tower dungeon at Lancaster but any real wealth would have stayed with her Whitaker family outside of the forest. It is an integral part of the Alice Nutter legend that her family refused to speak up for her and actively allowed her to be prosecuted in order to gain her estates.
1) Clitheroe Court Rolls Vol:2
Extracted from:
Clayton, J A
The Lancashire Witch Conspiracy (PP.238-9)
www.barrowfordpress.co.uk
In 1561 John Hargreaves of Roughlee, William Smith of Roughlee and Nicholas Robinson of Roughlee, at the request of Miles Nutter, his wife Elizabeth and his son Richard surrendered half of a farm property in Roughlee (on rental of £0: 22s: 2d per annum) to the use of John Smith (son of William Smith of Roughlee), John Smith (son of William Smith of Pighole in Briercliffe), James and John Whittaker (sons of Giles Whittaker of Huncote, the brothers of Alice Nutter). The right of John Nutter (son of Miles) was reserved.1 The intent of the surrender was that the share in the farm was to go to the use of Miles Nutter and Elizabeth his wife and after their deaths a quarter share was to go to ‘Alice Nutter, now wife of the said Richard Nutter for life, in the name of her dower.’ The remainder of the property was to go to Richard and his heirs. This was possibly the farm on which John Smith built Roughlee Old Hall.
Who, then, was Alice, wife of Dick O’ Miles? The Whitaker family had been in the Padiham area since the thirteenth century and eventually split into three main branches; the Whitakers of Holme-in-Cliviger, the Whitakers of Broadclough and the family of Simonstone. Attached to this latter branch was Gyles Whitaker of Huncoat, he had been constable of Huncoat four times, greave of Huncoat in 1556 and was of sufficient importance to have been only one of two men to have appeared on the Muster Roll. Alice was one of Gyles Whitaker’s five children, the others being the eldest, James, John, Agnes and Joan. There is no surprise in the fact that the Roughlee Nutters and the Huncoat Whitakers became related; although some five miles in distance the Simonstone Whitakers were continually trading lands within Pendle Forest.
In this capacity they rubbed shoulders with almost all of the landowners hereabouts and when Gyles
saw an opportunity to marry his daughter, Alice, off to the ageing Richard Nutter, of Roughlee,
he jumped at the chance. Just what Alice might have thought about the matter is another story!
One of the most commonly held beliefs in the Pendle Witch legend is that Alice Nutter found herself being prosecuted because she had been in an acrimonious boundary dispute over Roger Nowell’s neighbouring lands. Unfortunately this piece of folklore does not appear to hold water. Many of the local farmers held lands bordering onto Roughlee at one time or another, amongst these was another family named Nowell, from Fence, who were often seen to be involved in land transactions around Roughlee; this was often in their duties as acting forest stewards. That Roger Nowell and the Simonstone Whitakers were often at contretemps with each other over lands in the Read area is well documented; these disputes often ran for generations and it is this link between Alice Nutter and Roger Nowell that might have triggered the folk-memory.
Alice Nutter did not in fact ever live at Roughlee Old Hall (as legend has had it for some 150 years), her home was on the Crowtrees estate some half a mile to the west. Nor did she have the riches and estates that Potts would have us believe, she was wealthier than her companions in the Well Tower dungeon at Lancaster but any real wealth would have stayed with her Whitaker family outside of the forest. It is an integral part of the Alice Nutter legend that her family refused to speak up for her and actively allowed her to be prosecuted in order to gain her estates.
1) Clitheroe Court Rolls Vol:2
Extracted from:
Clayton, J A
The Lancashire Witch Conspiracy (PP.238-9)
www.barrowfordpress.co.uk
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Re: Alice Nutter in the Clitheroe Court Rolls
Hi Stanley,
Many thanks for that and sorry for not replying sooner.
It's the 'quarter share' bit amongst others that intrigues me. It's not a 100% confirmation that Alice Nutter was a Whitaker, but it's a very good start. I think John Clayton isn't 100% anymore either though she could of been further down the Whitaker line.
In fact it was through the old forum that made the connection with the will of Giles Whitaker of Huncoat...though alas Alice Nutter wasn't on it which raised a few questions.
I still think it might be right though!...even though there is no mention of her in Giles Whitaker's will.
Many thanks for that and sorry for not replying sooner.
It's the 'quarter share' bit amongst others that intrigues me. It's not a 100% confirmation that Alice Nutter was a Whitaker, but it's a very good start. I think John Clayton isn't 100% anymore either though she could of been further down the Whitaker line.
In fact it was through the old forum that made the connection with the will of Giles Whitaker of Huncoat...though alas Alice Nutter wasn't on it which raised a few questions.
I still think it might be right though!...even though there is no mention of her in Giles Whitaker's will.