British Legion building.

[Wendyf]

I have been asked about the history of the British Legion building on King Street but I know nothing about it, can anyone help please?

[plaques]

There are quite a number of pictures of King St in 'Barnoldswick Then & Now' but how you search for them is a bit problematic.

[PanBiker]

I'm sure Stanley has written something on this, the building is certainly on the 1892 map and I think also on the 1853 edition. The rest of the row is certainly a lot older. My grandparents used to live at number 15 and my aunt and uncle at number 17.

[Wendyf]

I've searched this site and the Archived OGFB as well as I can using Google but I can only find photos. I'm sure it has been discussed before at some point!

[Stanley]

Actually, I'm not too sure it has been discussed. I shall have a furtle, I have an idea that there was a clogger on the site before the Legion. I shall give it some thought....

[plaques]

Three images from Barnoldswick Then & Now. More to do with King St rather than the Legion Building. They also show the removal of the cottages across from the Legion. One of the postings carried the comment that King St was built in 1714.

King St 1.jpg

King St 2.jpg

King St 3.jpg

[Stanley]

The Royal British Legion wasn't formed until 1921 and this could well be when the Legion was built. Atkinson wrote Old Barlick around 1915 and did some revisions around 1923 four years before he died in 1927. No mention of the Legion in the revision so the build date of the club could be later.

[Wendyf]

The 1st edition OS map shows a building in that position....I think!

[Stanley]

It does Wendy. The depiction of the very small house with the back yard at the west end of the old existing buildings on the opposite side of King Street from the Nook is accurate. (Our local TV actor lived there but I forget his name....) Question is, is the block attached further to the west where the Legion is now the same build as what exists now. You'd have to go and examine the building but my guess is that it is but the building and it's frontage was modified during the late 1920s when the Legion took it over.
One thing to remember is that wonderful as the 1853 First Edition is, I have occasionally found errors in the small detail of building shapes, not to be wondered at really but this looks accurate to me.
Here's a note I made in 2005 about Jepp Hill.

JEPP HILL

I talked to Eric Parker today [21/02/2005] and asked him about the buildings on Jepp Hill. He says that the buildings which used to be at the foot of Jepp Hill on the site where the car park is now opposite the Cross Keys and next to Taylforth’s was a three storey building with a shop in the bottom and a cottage [or two?] on top. The shop was at one time a clogger’s but later in the 1930s was Martins plumbers. When they moved to Butts Top the shop became a lady’s hairdressers, he thinks she was called ‘Lettie’ [short for Leticia?] The buildings below the Cross Keys facing Lamb Hill which were demolished to widen the bend were cottages and Catlow’s barber’s shop. The building opposite these cottages with the ornate pediment over the window was Holmes’ pie shop. The shop between that and the Seven Stars used to be the Council Surveyor’s office at one time. There was another cottage round the corner at the top of Lamb Hill but this was demolished.

SCG/21 February 2005

According to Atkinson the now demolished building at the bottom of the hill where the clogger was was built by the Oddfellows.

[PanBiker]

The 1893 or thereabouts map has it a different shape but effectively the same as it is now. If the original building was modified it would have to have been before the 1920's.

[Stanley]

Not sure I understand why Ian. Surely the frontage could be modified at any time?

[PanBiker]

Agreed, probably phrased that wrong. What I should have said is that the building has the same footprint that it has had since at least 1893. Not to say that it hasn't been knocked about with change of use. It obviously had a previous life and purpose before the club which would be interesting to find.

[Wendyf]

There must be all sorts of clues on this side wall view.....I just wish I knew how to read them! It looks as if the building may once have been the same height as the cottage next door, and possibly there was a gap between the two buildings which has been filled in? Just guessing.

[PanBiker]

An infill looks like a good bet Wendy, stonework is not tied in at either side. You can see what looks like a former chimney stack on the Legion building, it's short of the present height of the building. Google camera goes a bit out of focus at the top. I bet my dad would have known, a builder by trade and lifelong Legion member.

[Stanley]

The small building doesn't look like an infill, it looks contiguous with the older buildings to the left, an outshut. Look at the weathering on the quoins at the right hand end and contrast with the sharp edge of the masonry on the end of the Legion. If you look at that end wall you'll see that the bottom half (back in from the frontage) is rubble stone which changes to Yorkshire Points above, the same type of stone in the frontage. I'd say that the rubble stone is the remains of the original building range, possibly cottages later than those on the left, given a guess I'd go for early 18th century because that was when a lot of stone buildings were erected in Barlick. The frontage and the upper levels of masonry on the end wall are completely different. Dressed coursed stone, what used to be called Yorkshire Points. They have 'rubble faces', the rough finish with a dressed surround. A very good way of cutting stone and still popular in Barlick as late as the 1930s, see Harold Duxbury's account of building the Inghamite Chapel in Salterforth in 1931 in the LTP. It looks as though the conjecture about the original buildings being reconstructed in the late 1920s could be right. As Ian says, what we need is a clue to the original cottages before that date. Is there any clue in the census?

[Wendyf]

We didn't mean that the little cottage was an infill Stanley, just the narrow section of masonry between that and the British Legion Building.

[PanBiker]

I thought the narrow section was a former chimney stack. I agree about the two different types of masonry. Census may shed some light on former use. The small cottage should be number 19, my Gran lived at 15 and my Aunt at 17. I remember 17 in particular was a proper warren, lots of nooks and crannies. There is a date stone on that part of the row.

Gable end on my first house on York St was Yorkshire Points, I know, I picked all 96 course of joints out when we repointed it, job and a half!

[Wendyf]

I see what you mean Ian. I haven't managed to find a census with house numbers listed yet, though there is lots of interesting stuff happening on King Street in the 1861 census. There is a widow from Leicestershire with 11 unrelated teenage boarders between 13 and 18 years old, all from Leicestershire. I suppose it could have been a school, but she isn't listed as a teacher. There are shoemakers and blacksmiths, butchers, grocers and farmers. Ten years later most of the inhabitants are cotton weavers.

[PanBiker]

Could where the Legion building be now have been a farm or blacksmiths?

[Wendyf]

I've just found King Street on the 1911 census and am strolling along it...big family at number 17 with 5 rooms, so a decent sized property. Hang on, I'm nearly at 21!

[Wendyf]

Numbers 21 and 23 are both 4 roomed cottages in the 1911 census, 21 housing a weaver and his family and 23 a confectioner making plain and fancy bread.
They must have been combined to create the British Legion building. I found number 19 on Rightmove, and snipped this photo showing the back. There is a plaque on the wall of number 21. The chap who asked me the question about the building in the first place told me about a date stone at the back but I cant remember what he said the date was.

[Stanley]

Sorry about the infill misapprehension. The narrower section is certainly a stack belonging to the right hand building. The census information is interesting Wendy. The large number of teenagers are almost certainly mill workers, could be Clough or Butts. Billycock was noted for importing orphan apprentices to work in his mills and this group are almost certainly a hangover from the system, he seemed to favour Leicestershire, I have seen it mentioned before. Usually children of impoverished agricultural workers who had ended up in the workhouse, it was common for them to be transferred to others as apprentices. For a classic example look at the Gregs of Styal at Quarry Bank Mill. Remember that at that time there was a labour shortage in the mills, hence the lodgers in many houses and the need for the Model Lodging Houses in Butts. There is a good chance that the original cottages you have found were very similar to the Nook and almost certainly the same build date which would be very early 19th century.



The Nook just before it was demolished.

I got my1911 directory out and had a furtle.
25 King Street: William Shorrock, stockbroker. Mrs Elizabeth Petty is noted as a confectioner on Jepp Hill. The directories weren't as accurate on addresses as the census and this is almost certainly the one mentioned by Wendy.
I had a look in the index as well. In December 2004 T Mason said "My grandmother kept a common lodging house at 17 King Street in 1932 according to a Council notice I have". Also, referring to the Nook.... Information from Colin Myers (Nolic) December 2004 "The end cottage used to be occupied by Francis and Alice Dickinson who minded me when I was a nipper. They took in evacuated kids during the war and had hearts of gold. Between the wall and the first cottage was a ginnel that led to the entrance of the Ivory Hall"
Nice little piece of cooperation......

[Wendyf]

I'm told that the plaque on the back of the building has a date of 1714.

[plaques]

1714. I would be amazed if this was an original plaque, ie: installed when the building was first erected. Being one of my nerdish hobbies I have images of hundreds of plaques and date stones. the oldest most convincing date stone, other than in Colne church yard, is around 1830. The 'older' ones are either painted to re establish the date, or very doubtful reproductions. Two Barlick examples are attached.Fosters Arms .

P1080112AC.jpg

Church St.

P1080035AD.jpg

[Stanley]

Both of those examples coincide with the written history P but the thing to remember is that they do not necessarily apply to the latest version of a refurbished building. (Actually the one on Church Street does accord with what is there now because that row was built after the Green was sold to finance the Wapping 'bridge' over Gillians Beck in 1815).
The beginning of the 18th century was a very active period for building in Barlick and this included the rebuilding of existing buildings. Hey Farm is a good example, an old timber hall rebuilt at that time. So my guess is that the date stone on the Legion building refers to the first rebuilding of the older cottages on the site and looks perfectly reasonable. As I said before, the Nook is probably as close as we can get to the original cottages.