ENERGY MATTERS

User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

I wouldn't trust any meter unless I can check what its telling me. Part of the reason I have 4 meters. The official import meter is around 1% fast on the meters I put in myself and 0.7% fast on its predecessor (replaced because the year dot meter ran backwards when the solar panels were doing their thing). I decided 1% discrepancy probably isn't enough to make a case of.

The health case against such technology is very real, but with one proviso, its the fear of the technology that does the damage, not the technology itself. If you think its going to harm you, it probably will, if you don't fear it, its harmless. Ask any doctor if the placebo effect is real or not......

As for some of the control claims made for them, most couldn't be achieved without some other technology at play, and most aren't economical to achieve with a domestic tariff, The power companies will need to pay for the data charges their smart meter consumes, so to keep the costs doable they call home once a week or once a month. No doubt they could monitor you to the second. but I can't see the power companies coughing up 30 quid a month for mobile phone data charges when you're only paying maybe 70 or 80 quid a month to them in the first place. And since they are wired / plumbed in exactly the same as decades old meters, their is precious little information can be derived from the flow of power or gas through what is effectively a single wire/pipe. I know, because I do it, I can hazard a guess from how much electric the meter is metering , which appliances are being used, because I know how much each of them consume, but its only a guess and that with significant inside knowledge. Gets very difficult when more than one heavy use appliance is on at once. Hmmm, 3.5kW at 17:46 on the 30th June 2015 is that the oven and toaster on together or the microwave, toaster and breadmaker on together or maybe the central heating boiler and the fridge and freezer and a load of lights on together with the toaster ? Not exactly enough information to determine anything at all other than at 17:46 you were consuming 3.5 kW of electric. Anybody who thinks they can make anything of that information is welcome to it. Much of the time, you can't say with any certainty whether there is someone at home or not, the house consumes the same when no-one is home as when you're sat reading a book or something without any lights on. And is that extra 60 watts lights or the fridge thats run up because the thermostat tells it to ?

When they changed the gas meter for smart one, it was exactly the same as the one it replaced, except it had a small sensor on the side of the digits panel connected by a cable to an external box containing the 'smart' bit, mobile phone tackle and a largish battery to power it for allegedly 10 years. It couldn't have been capable of doing anything other than keeping track of how much gas you've consumed and calling home at extended periods to transfer that information. (Once a month in the case of the Gas meter, the electric does it once week, since it doesn't gave the battery constraints) No way could it even cut off the gas remotely. And since I carry a mobile phone around in my pocket most of the time, a mobile phone that fires up once a week, in a location I rarely visit, isn't going to concern me.

As far as I'm concerned the main driver for installing smart meters is so they don't have to employ a small army of bods in little vans reading meters. That itself is enough reason. Bugger the no more estimated bills bit, that's just sales pitch.......

However now the utility company has got the church electric smart meter going (they changed the sim card) and put a "smart" gas meter in, not having to read meters or ensuring someone is there to let in the bod in the little van to read it is a real boon. :)
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

I agree with much that Pluggy says. No more meter men and the water meter is remote reading as well.... The bills are still a mystery to me, far too complicated and the smart meter doesn't seem to have changed the fact that they charge you on estimated use and I suspect load summer bills to level out winter. I just look at the bottom line on the bill.
I cracked last night and turned the thermostat up to 19C because I felt chilly and the house was feeling a bit dank.... Might as well bite the bullet and let some gas in for comfort and health..... CH is on at a low level this morning. Much better!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 16628
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by PanBiker »

I read my own meters every month with an occasional cross check by the roaming meter reader. The upgrade will save me the job. I didn't know they worked by mobile signal, I bet it's a customised ARM chipped board or similar.
Ian
User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

I'm still on unmetered water, If you're only a light user it will cost more, but once you get a meter in, you can't go back.

"The bills are still a mystery to me, far too complicated and the smart meter doesn't seem to have changed the fact that they charge you on estimated use and I suspect load summer bills to level out winter."

You're not alone in not understanding energy bills, half the people employed by the energy companies don't understand them either. ( Most of them don't know the difference between a kW and a kWh, and wouldn't know a joule or megajoule if it bit them on the backside ).

Being a geek, I pride myself in understanding energy bills. On the plus side metering electric hasn't changed in a hundred years although the meters are probably easier to read these days. Back in the 80s they changed the gas from now largely forgotton British Thermal Units or Therms (1 therm is 100,000 BTus, 1 BTU is 1055 joules or watt seconds) to kWh hours which is the same as Electric always has been. The complication between what the gas meter reads and heat value has always been there. Modern meters measure cubic metres, old ones measure 100's of cubic feet. There is a temperature correction figure (cold gas is denser and thus has more energy per unit of volume than warmer gas.) and the exact composition of the piped gas varies in how much energy it contains so that is factored in as well. The energy content of gas is usually measured in MJ / m3 or megajoules per cubic metre. And finally a kWh is 3.6 megajoules (a joule is a watt second, 3600 seconds in an hour so 1000 watts for 3600 seconds is 3,600,000 joules or 3.6 MJ). Generally when you do the sums a cubic meter comes out around 11.1 or 11.2 kWh. If you have an old meter that reads 100's of cuft, they multipy by 2.83XXX to do the conversion. This is the souce of the tabloid headlines where people have been paying 3 times over the odds for gas for decades because at some point in history somebody said a cubic metre meter was a 100's of cu ft. They are typically marked very clearly which type they are.

Image

This is mine, the M3 next to "Made in England" denotes cubic metres.

Incidentally this meter which has been here for in excess of 20 years is pretty easy to convert to a smart meter. Intenally it has a permanent magnet which is attached to the last digit of the meter, all it takes is a reed switch or more recently an hall effect sensor stuck on the outside and a microconroller to determine gas use without seeing the dials. (Which is exactly how I determine gas use).

Whether you pay the same year round for energy or it is charged by the month on what you use is dependent on your tariff. Most provider will do a variable direct debit and is charged for the preceding months use. The church has been enjoying 5 quid a month gas bills during the summer, it will go up into the 100's in January. Many people prefer a predictable sum each month.
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Tripps
VIP Member
Posts: 8914
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Tripps »

Well - that's as much as you need to know about metering. I'll need some time to get a grip of it all. :smile:

"I'm still on unmetered water, If you're only a light user it will cost more, but once you get a meter in, you can't go back.""

I changed to a water meter. Under the 'rateable value' system I was paying £440 per year, ten years ago. In a similar rated property, and ten years later, I am now paying about half of that. They said at the time that if I didn't like the new system, I could go back to the old one. They would not take out the meter, but would ignore it, and calculate again using rateable value. Once I move - the new occupant must use the meter. I think that is still the case.

Here's the downside, and a tip. Do not ignore for several months a strange faint noise in your bathroom. It may be your garden water supply at the far end of the garden, gently flowing into the ground. After convincing them that the waste flowed into the ground rather than their drain. I 'got away with' a £900+ bill. It was originally double that . Traumatic - but I convinced Direct Line that it was a burst pipe, and covered by their policy. Just cost me the excess. Phew. . .
Born to be mild
Sapere Aude
Ego Lego
Preferred pronouns - Thou, Thee, Thy, Thine
My non-working days are Monday - Sunday
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

I pay less with the water meter as well David. Dead simple system here, if there are any leaks this side of the stop tap they are in the house so I'll know about them!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 18940
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Tizer »

We changed to a water meter a couple of years ago and pay a fraction of the previous cost. There's usually only the two of us and we use showers rather than a bath and don't use much water in the garden (the plants have to fend for themselves). When we first came to this house we could hear a faint hissing indoors and traced it to the water main pipe. We contacted the water company and they found it was due to a leak at the junction with the main outside our front gate. The sound had carried all the way into the house.
Nullius in verba: On the word of no one (Motto of the Royal Society)
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

Even with all the technology we have now I think the stick with the earpiece on the end is still used by the workers to pinpoint a leak.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

This one slipped by the BBC's news site :

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... generation

Earlier in the summer there was mention that for the first time in over a hundred years no coal had been burnt in a day generating electric for the grid. I'm becoming more optimistic that the the grid can keep going despite shutting old power stations. Grid electric is reducing despite an increasing population (They reckon low power CFL & LED lighting has a lot to do with it) . Coal has been used very little for the grid since gas got cheaper a year or two back, The cost of cleaning up some coal power stations has made them uneconomic much of the time. many that haven't cleaned up their flue gases only run intermittently to keep their emissions within constraints. Many of the coal plants are closing because they aren't economic to run in the current climate. As I write this Coal is supplying ~3% of the demand and centrally metered wind is ~15%. There is half as much wind again that isn't centrally metered and all the solar capacity isn't directly metered.. They just manifest themeslves as a reduction in load.

Solar power is getting cheap, if you're prepared to do the work yourself, its economic to put them in without a feed in tariff (and you won't get one these days), particularly if you can live with S/H panels.

Heres a bigger system than is on my roof,with battery backup for £2000 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3KVA-2-4KW-24 ... SwyQtVi-x8
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

I note from Facebook that Kev has cleaned his flue and lit the Morso! I have been letting the gas take the strain up to now, I shall put a match to the stove when it gets properly cold! There's not a lot of difference in cost....
Kev, remember that if all else fails I have a spare tube of Zebrite under the sink...... you are welcome to it. I look forward to seeing a pic of the refurbished stove in all its glory!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 18940
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Tizer »

There was an interview on the radio this morning with a rather aggressive American man who was trying to tell us that the US Environmental Protection Agency and US Government were telling us lies about the safety of fracking for shale gas and that water gets contaminated with methane. He was like Donald Trump, determined to speak over the interviewer and absolutely convinced he was right and that we should all believe him. He claims that that there hundreds of examples of water contamination. What he didn't say, and unfortunately the BBC person didn't seem to know, is that fracking has been in use in the USA since the 1940s and over a million wells have been fracked. The wells could be set up by anyone on their own land and with little regulation - a typical US libertarian `cowboy' approach. This resulted in plenty of opportunity for poor design, cutting corners, lack of maintenance etc and so it's not surprising that there are probably some real instances of contamination. This long history of fracking in the USA has a benefit for us; companies like Cuadrilla have learned from the those US experiences and our regulations in the UK are much tighter for the same reasons.

For anyone who wants in-depth knowledge of fracking and background to the concerns this Geological Society of America provides an abundance of information and references: LINK

I'm not a supporter of fracking, I think we should be moving away from fossil fuels. But I think the debate about it's safety should be based on sound evidence.
Nullius in verba: On the word of no one (Motto of the Royal Society)
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

I heard that interview as well Tiz and totally agree with you. Apart from his dogmatic attitude, refusing to debate, he was incredibly rude to the lady who interviewed him. To quote Blake; "The man who never changes his opinion is like stagnant water and reptiles breed in his mind". That man was a classic example! I agree with you, I am suspicious about fracking but realistic in recognising that it may be needed. If we do use it the science must guide us as to best practice. I often wonder when I see the anti-fracking brigade in full flow how well they are informed and what they would do if faced with a stark choice, fracking or the lights going out.....
I got my quarterly energy statement yesterday and once more it is too complicated to understand...... Perhaps I am less intelligent than I thought.....
[The same applies to Talktalk's latest account changes......]
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

My opinion is unless the protesters homes are not connected to the grid for electricity and don't use natural gas they are hypocrites.

Perfectly OK to pay terrorists and dictatorial regimes to dig natural gas out of the ground, but be damned if its giving jobs to British nationals ? Perl-eeeeze.......
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

Insomnia, here I am posting alongside Stanley.....
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

Nowt wrong with that! You are making good sense, my sentiments entirely.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
David Whipp
Senior Member
Posts: 2874
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:26

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by David Whipp »

My view is that probably the single biggest threat to human survival is the impact of CO2 on our environment.

Available evidence shows that on present trends it's likely that Earth will be uninhabitable in a few short generations.

There may of course be a technological revolution just round the corner that will get us out of trouble, but in the meantime my views are shaped by wanting a future for our descendants.

Therefore, I'm in favour of leaving as much oil and gas in the ground as possible, wherever it's located. (Also, it appears utterly bonkers to me just to burn such a valuable resource... but that's another matter.)
User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 18940
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Tizer »

Good posts...we're fighting a battle against vested interests, greed, gullibility and apathy. (We could say that about the fight against Trump's march towards the US Presidency too.)
Nullius in verba: On the word of no one (Motto of the Royal Society)
User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

David Whipp wrote: Therefore, I'm in favour of leaving as much oil and gas in the ground as possible, wherever it's located. (Also, it appears utterly bonkers to me just to burn such a valuable resource... but that's another matter.)
Therefore, you've sold the car, had the gas taken out of your home and are living off-grid ?

Devils Advocate ?, Me ? Nahhhhh......
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Pluggy
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2048
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Pluggy »

Working on the assumption that the terrorists and dictatorial regimes only spend money pulling the stuff out of the ground if they can sell it, if we're pulling it out of the ground and burning it ourselves, they will be selling less of it and more of theirs will be staying in the ground. Something of a zero sum game.

Then its either hoping for the 'cure' or changing your lifestyle.

Was Maggie's war with the miners and the subsequent closure of pits in this country a good or a bad thing ? Discuss.
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
User avatar
Big Kev
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 11157
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 20:15
Location: Foulridge

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Big Kev »

Stanley wrote:I note from Facebook that Kev has cleaned his flue and lit the Morso! I have been letting the gas take the strain up to now, I shall put a match to the stove when it gets properly cold! There's not a lot of difference in cost....
Kev, remember that if all else fails I have a spare tube of Zebrite under the sink...... you are welcome to it. I look forward to seeing a pic of the refurbished stove in all its glory!
I will take you up on your offer tomorrow (Friday) thank you. I have a meeting at 06:30 with some Australians and will hopefully escape for a bit around 07:30. Depends on the outcome :-)
Kev

Stylish Fashion Icon.
🍹
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

It's waiting for you.....
The reality of of the modern world we have constructed is that until there is a miracle, we need the energy. Think of the last time you were in hospital David.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
Big Kev
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 11157
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 20:15
Location: Foulridge

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Big Kev »

Stanley wrote:It's waiting for you......
My meeting is going on longer than expected; will you be in around 08:45 or will you be on your shopping expedition?
Kev

Stylish Fashion Icon.
🍹
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

He's been round looting pensioner's stock cupboards......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
User avatar
Big Kev
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 11157
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 20:15
Location: Foulridge

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Big Kev »

Stanley wrote:He's been round looting pensioner's stock cupboards......
I have been taking advantage of the elderly again :-). There are some pics in Shed Matters...
Kev

Stylish Fashion Icon.
🍹
User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 91532
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: ENERGY MATTERS

Post by Stanley »

I felt no pain..... Glad to be able to help a mate. I keep telling you, you can't beat having good stocks in the cupboards!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Post Reply

Return to “Current Affairs & Comment”