WHAT ATTRACTED YOUR ATTENTION TODAY?

[hartley353]

This is a very difficult one Nolic. Many companies would probably love to give him experience, but once again Health and safety stays their hands.Very few would try to circumvent this, the words duty of care would always rule. This is the way of the world how do i get experience if no one wants to train me. Maybe the universities should be giving hands on training,and issuing certificates of competence as the student raises his game. these certificates could be as simple as lifting safety,operation of power equipment,fire safety,First aid, COSHH, all qualifications normal employees have. Another suggestion that has worked for me in the past is to find an employer for whom you'd like to work. Then make clear your wish to be employed by them,from then on remain in contact by giving them updates on your studies and drop in little snippets of knowledge you have gained on the companies activites,you become like a pen friend to the HR dept. This worked to good effect when I approached IBM many years ago, unfortunately or fortunately I had at the end of my studies offers of employment from Wang Computers and DEC. Then two years later I was interviewing for another company to be met on the other side of the table by my IBM contact. The job was mine.

[Stanley]

It's a problem isn't it. I feel sorry for young people these days, we never had any problem getting a job when we left school sixty years ago. There's another problem as well, once you have your foot in the door it's hard to move into another field, too much specialisation and dumbing down of jobs in the lower echelons. My early education after schooling was gained by being nosey and looking at lots of different things and none of the jobs I eventually did were gained by qualifications beyond an HGV licence.
Nowt wrong with any degree subject as long as it is a rigorous course. The main benefit of university is it teaches you to study and think. It's surprising how valuable a good degree in say history can equip you for other fields. As for Dan... he's such a brilliant lad that I have no doubt that once he gets his foot in the door he will start to fly, the trick is that first step. If I was you Comrade I'd be advising him to get any experience he can, it all massages the CV and he'll get there in the end.

[Nolic]

I have an old friend who I approached yesterday and he will do all he can. Not an ideal type placement but at least it gives him something to add to his CV if it comes off. Nolic

[Bruff]

''.......but once again Health and safety stays their hands...''

As the person would be an employee like any other employee in the organisation, I fail to see how this would be the case. Except to the extent that it's a convenient excuse for those who simply can't be bothered to offer a placement.

Health and safety duties in this country fall to the employer (thought the employee should follow instruction and look out for others etc), so getting the University to take on an additional role in monitoring standards or providing statements of competence with respect to certain hazards would seem unnecessarily burdensome. They might do this for their employees, but I would have thought the on-going engagement with and experience of university staff with potential employers is enough to ensure, so far as is reasonable, someone isn't sent on placement to a death trap. That said, it might be worthwhile ensuring the first question a placement student asks on taking up the post is to see a copy of the organisation's health and safety policy - the answer to which is an evidence base for the engagement etc mentioned in the previous sentence.

Just to note, one sector where this country is genuinely world class is the creative industries (along with aerospace and pharmaceuticals and tertiary education for example). It's worth billions to this country and where a lot of arts graduates and 'media studies' graduates end up. Indeed, I may be right in noting that the creative industries are at the very least about the same in their worth to this country as the finance sector, yet very many routes into this sector of the economy are those routinely pilloried as not worthy of for example, study at tertiary level.

Richard Broughton

[hartley353]

When sitting an exam paper students are always reminded to read the paper carefully before setting pen to it,this is good advice. Please read Nolics posting and then read mine again. This is not employment but a request by a diligent student to gain experience,for no reward. thousands of job seekers are also following this path in the hope of proving themselves and gaining a paid position. Good words from Stanley.My last job interview was in 1986 from then on all my paid employment came from word of mouth and contacts my bow has many strings and has allowed me to work in many fields mostly away from home, all the hours away from home were spent on distance learning in this day and age no single qualification will take you through life.

[Bruff]

Thank you for that advice.

I apologise as I thought your contention was that health and safety requirements stop a prospective work experience student gaining a position. This is demonstrably not the case and I felt it worth pointing this out in case the prospective student is informed it somehow is. To be helpful to the student of course, as I have no argument whatsover with the original posts on this and wish the prospective student every success in finding a position. I do not want false barriers to be erected for spurious reasons - health and safety law and requirements does not stop placements.

As an aside, if you are an intern in a company then irrespective of whether you're paid or not, you are to all intents and purposes an 'employee' under certain legislation and so should be treated as such. Now some might say this is a barrier to providing placements. Fair enough, but with respect to an employee's health and safety folk new to the workplace are at significantly increased risk of serious injury or worse. This is why, perhaps counter-intuitively, in economic downturns health and safety 'improves', whilst in upturns it 'reduces'.

Richard Broughton

[Tizer]

Nolic, out of curiosity, when you say Dan was looking for an `internship' do you mean a paid temporary placement with pay from the company, or paid by the uni, or unpaid? If paid by the company, then I suppose it's likely to be the accountants holding back on funds. But I wonder if one reason for the companies not taking students now is that unfortunately even science graduates often seem to have a poor grasp of their subject and of numeracy and literacy. I'm not suggesting Dan is one of those, but that the companies have given up because of too much experience with the `bad' ones in the past. When I worked in science I usually had students with me every year from `sandwich' courses. Some were very good and others poor - the latter were a great burden, taking up a lot of the supervisor's time and not gaining much themselves because they weren't really interested. But at least in those days even the `poor' ones were fully literate and numerate which is not so in all cases now. I hear terrible stories from scientists now about the quality and motivation of students. Too many have become science students without really being capable and suited to it, which is not their fault of course, it's down to the advice they get. On the other hand, there are many exceptional students and more opportunities for women and for those without a privileged background.

[hartley353]

When you invite a new person into the working environs of an engineering works ,. of course you have to look out for their safety. But as an employer you have to take into account the safety of your main stream workforce, and some pretty expensive equipment. When you do the risk assessment it is pretty simple to eliminate the risk don't introduce the person.

[Thomo]

Many engineering works still like to bring up their employees the old fashioned way, a mixture of college and practical experience, this is a tried and tested procedure. The risk involved in taking someone on board who has all of the technical know how, yet has no "shop floor" experience is far greater. Also, if you are going to be in a position where you are telling, or asking someone do do something difficult, you need to be able to do it as well yourself, or preferably better. Shop floor harmony!

[Bruff]

''......But as an employer you have to take into account the safety of your main stream workforce.....''

In part. Your statutory duties as an employer extend to your employees, whether they are 'main stream', or placement students, or work experience students, or those on short-term contracts. You also have a duty to ensure the health and safety of visitors, or members of the public who may be affected by your work activities (so you don't put up dodgy scaffolding that collapses onto the pedestrian below for example). If you ignore all these and focus on your 'main stream workforce' (whatever this is)you would be failing in your duties in criminal law.

And the purpose of a risk assessment is and never has been to eliminate risk, except where that risk assessment shows it is reasonable to do so through for example substitution of material or kit.

We're getting side-tracked here but I must emphasise that if work experience is being refused to an individual on the grounds of 'health and safety', or if some believe that is is 'health and safety' that is the barrier, this must be challenged. As it is wrong. There are enough difficulties with people finding work experience without this canard being chucked into the ring.

Richard Broughton

[hartley353]

Once again you have fired fast, and fired wide, the target has been missed,and the original problem ignored,this pyramid is being built from the point up. Young Dan's problem has gained little help,and I can only wish him good luck for the recess,and hope all his endeavours bring him great success in the future. Engineering is a very fulfilling career.

[Stanley]

Neither of you is wrong and in matters connected to the administration of H&S Richard has enough experience at high level to be regarded as a reliable source so not much point sniping at him on accuracy.
It strikes me that the above is probably a good example of the discussions that go on in companies when taking interns in, whether paid or unpaid, is being discussed. It gets too complicated and people just give up, easiest thing is not to bother.
There is another factor working against interns in the present climate, the fear of being branded as exploiters of the young. Remember Tesco getting rid of the interns even though they were being paid by the work-seeking benefits? They did it because of publicity branding them as slave drivers. Not good for the brand! Dan's a survivor, I'll lay odds he finds something and I wish him well.
Eight months gaol. (Could be as little as two months and then out on licence) What intrigues me is the way that the same people that hounded them are now almost excusing them and saying what a 'tragedy' it is. Nonsense, they did wrong were found out and punished. Just as it should be regardless of their position in the hierarchy. This swapping for avoiding penalty points is more widespread than is immediately apparent and this verdict may give some people pause for thought.

[Stanley]

On another matter, I don't know whether this applies to all members but I can't access anything via the Forum page where I usually start with 'active topics' I am having to work via the list on the portal.

[Marilyn]

Same here, Stanley.

[Stanley]

Thanks for that Maz. I had a Firefox upgrade yesterday and wondered if it was that. Must be at the server, I'll PM pluggy.

[Bodger]

Same problem here ?

[PanBiker]

Reported to Doc and Pluggy last night via PM after confirming with Nolic.

[Bruff]

''...Young Dan's problem has gained little help''

In the specific perhaps not, but in the generality it has. At the top of this page, it was suggested by someone that health and safety 'stays the hand' of employers who would 'love' to offer experience to young engineers. There is nothing, as I have attempted to make clear, in health and safety law that prevents employers offering this experience. Nothing whatsover. You can look on the Health and Safety Executive's website for their guidance on work experience and placements, and read 5 Steps to Risk Assessment, and find this out for yourself.

So here's where I attempted to help. Should any young prospective engineer looking for a placement be fobbed off with this as a reason for a company not offering a position, as some have suggested, they now have it from the horse's mouth as it were that this is not a 'reason', simply an excuse to for example hide the fact that it's too much effort in time and trouble to take someone on. If it is too much effort fine. But say that. Don't blame health and safety.

That's why we get stories like conkers being banned, due to 'health and safety'. Kids hit each other over the head with them, it makes a mess, they lark about, and rather than acknowledging the discipline issue (if indeed it is one), ban the thing due to 'health and safety'. Oh, and it conveniently avoids you being sued by an over-protective parent when their little cherub gets a bit of the shell in their eye. Nothing to do with health and safety legislation. At all.

I think I'll say no more on this.

Richard Broughton

[Marilyn]

I can only get on if I scroll down and click on the top ten topics. This takes me to page one of that topic and then I have to get forward to today's date. If I press " general chats" link at the end of topic I am dumped again and a terminal error message comes up. Same message if I try to enter OG from my favourites...error message and there is no using the back button as it won't work.

Can't help feeling someone has made it very difficult indeed to communicate on OG. ( they seem to have thought of everything!)

[Tripps]

When I use this link it doesn't connect - http://www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk/sear ... ive_topics

When I use this link it does. - http://www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk/

That's a relief, I thought I was going to need counselling today. I found out by using this website -

http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/

[hartley353]

Tried to post a comment this morning, but it failed to appear, I hope the problems are not related to my missing capslock reminder having gone rogue.

[hartley353]

''...Young Dan's problem has gained little help''

In the specific perhaps not, but in the generality it has. At the top of this page, it was suggested by someone that health and safety 'stays the hand' of employers who would 'love' to offer experience to young engineers. There is nothing, as I have attempted to make clear, in health and safety law that prevents employers offering this experience. Nothing whatsover. You can look on the Health and Safety Executive's website for their guidance on work experience and placements, and read 5 Steps to Risk Assessment, and find this out for yourself.

So here's where I attempted to help. Should any young prospective engineer looking for a placement be fobbed off with this as a reason for a company not offering a position, as some have suggested, they now have it from the horse's mouth as it were that this is not a 'reason', simply an excuse to for example hide the fact that it's too much effort in time and trouble to take someone on. If it is too much effort fine. But say that. Don't blame health and safety.

That's why we get stories like conkers being banned, due to 'health and safety'. Kids hit each other over the head with them, it makes a mess, they lark about, and rather than acknowledging the discipline issue (if indeed it is one), ban the thing due to 'health and safety'. Oh, and it conveniently avoids you being sued by an over-protective parent when their little cherub gets a bit of the shell in their eye. Nothing to do with health and safety legislation. At all.

I think I'll say no more on this.

Richard Broughton

Thanks to Stanley for your kind arbitration. And with respect to Richard I don't disagree with what he says but I have never come across a company that would give a reason for not hireing or helping interns it is just not done. I only offered a reason which has come from personal discussion. The sons and daughters of my friends have met with the same problem ,so I felt an instant empathy for Dan when I read Nolics posting. There done and dusted.

[hartley353]

Many engineering works still like to bring up their employees the old fashioned way, a mixture of college and practical experience, this is a tried and tested procedure. The risk involved in taking someone on board who has all of the technical know how, yet has no "shop floor" experience is far greater. Also, if you are going to be in a position where you are telling, or asking someone do do something difficult, you need to be able to do it as well yourself, or preferably better. Shop floor harmony!

Well said Thomo, Myself and others believe me to be a competent engineer, But on every occasion when i enter on to someone elses premises I will be expected to undergo an Induction, and rightly so, at the end of the induction there is usualy a tick box paper to be sat to show I have taken in the induction. These inductions can be up to 4 hrs, and are done on the basis that the subject has back ground training already....Mike.

[Marilyn]

Total change of subject I know ( sorry gents, I will let you get right back to it...)
But I had to smile when I read on the BBC news that the queen has had to cancel a few more duties and appointments ( no that wasn't the funny bit...do hope she is doing ok) after her recent bout of tummy troubles. HOWEVER she will still hold the 'Privy' Counsel on Wednesday!
Must be a pretty big privy...

[Stanley]

Nice one Maz and exactly the same root for both meanings, 'private'.
'Active topics' and other links working fine. Thanks to whoever addressed the problem.

Got mail today from the Co-op. Could I have cured the problem at last?

Dear Mr Graham
I writing on behalf of the Executive team to thank you for your recent email and respond to your enquiry. Firstly may I apologise for the delay in responding.
I have looked into your enquiry with the store team, I am sorry that the item that was arranged to be available in the Barnoldswick store has not been on sale. I have discussed this with the store team and the relevant teams within the business and this item is now available in store. This product was added to the stores range last year but during a range change the added line was missed. I have spoken to the store manager to request that during future range changes this product is reviewed.
As I am sure you can appreciate we try to put a range into a store that meets the majority of our customer’s needs, but we are unable to range every item for every customer. We do listen to our customers feedback and where possible make additions to ranges but I cannot guarantee this product will be stocked indefinitely but will be kept under review.
Again can I offer my apologies for the delay in responding and any inconvenience you have incurred. If I be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me directly.
Yours sincerely, Tom Foynes

Tom, thanks for the first mail I have had which actually addressed the point I have been making since last year.
Three points for you

Condor Green was not 'added' last year, it has been in store ever since you opened the pioneer store in Barlick.
You could ask your excellent staff in the store what other items dropped off the list when the stock list was adjusted. I think you'll find that Coleman's dry mustard powder has vanished as well. I can only flag up the ones I know about, There could be other long shelf-life items which have a steady sale that have fallen off the list as well.
Your staff are well aware of the flaws in your latest stock control programme. They are on the front line and field the complaints daily. Has anyone asked them what improvements can be made?

Best regards, Stanley