POLITICS CORNER

[Whyperion]

Hard luck Sally but best of the Labour slate. She picked a bad year.....

Thanks Stanley, it was this year or wait another four, there wont be another Town Council election until 2023. Unless of course we get the usual resignations from some of the "Liberal" councillors when they find out what it's really like. It will be co-opt or election then. Co-option under the current incumbents does not usually involve those that have actually stood for election and triggering an election is usually hailed as wasting the electorates money! It remains to be seen, co-option normally goes under the radar unless you follow the business at town council meetings.

On the national reporting bias. Labour loses around 80 councillors and is automatically in the same boat as the Tories who lost over 1,300? More air time is given into the Spanish Inquisition of all and sundry from Labour with little to the actual decimation of the Tories. How steep is that hill we have to climb?

If there are vacancies , should not the fairest be to offer to the next highest previous polling person - could that not be made some kind of standing rule?

I am never happy anyway if local choices are too influenced by national issues that are not in the field of reponsibility, or meaningful influence, of such local remit.

Unfortunatley I feel party groupings really have to work hard at getting supporters out to vote and participate, but in Barnoldswick I always got the feeling that the LibDems if they were in another town would be elected standing as independents, just how I see the thinking of the town electorate, or has there been some kind of shift within Labour that is repelling non hard-core voters nationally (London excluded)?

[PanBiker]

If there are vacancies , should not the fairest be to offer to the next highest previous polling person - could that not be made some kind of standing rule?

It could be but the record shows that it has not always been the case. The current incumbents seem to prefer co-option, perhaps looking for similar minded or manipulable people, rather than offer the position to someone from a different political persuasion. As I said above, unless you keep up with the internal workings via minutes or attending meetings of the Town Council it can, and does go completely unnoticed. I suppose people tend to see only what they want to see as long as it works for them. Judging by some of the puerile / ill informed or downright stupid comments over in Facebook land if anyone mentions the democratic system I'm not surprised.

I reckon this Brexit catastrophe has properly broken our two party, us and them, one side of the house or the other system. 50/50 vote, damned if you do, damned if you don't was bound to happen. I think it's the correct time now to seriously look at alternative and fairer electoral systems.

Some form of PR linked with mandatory voting would tick all my boxes, but it needs a proper grown up conversation so is unlikely to happen. We would need a suitable assembly building to do this, probably "in the round" rather than "across the house". Might as well put the new build in the centre of the country and build a housing estate alongside for the elected members to live in while attending, this would solve all the "expenses" scandals as rent for such could be deducted directly from allowances. Flat, same rate for everybody and all accommodation the same. Good communication links with rail and road and fast fibre broadband and telephone systems for every property.

We could do all this at a fraction of what they are currently spending to stop the Victorian pile of parliament buildings in London from falling down. Shore that one up, make it safe and charge the tourists £20.00 a go to look at it and take photographs. Keep the clock tower and Big Ben going as that is easy and is the most iconic bit of the establishment and quite useful from time to time (11am) as a rule. The costings (was it 9 billion the last time I looked) does not include stopping it sinking into the Thames, they haven't figured out how to do that yet.

Now that the elections are over (for three weeks anyway) and Theresa still has her head up her rear regarding the EU, we need something to talk about in this thread. It might as well be how to fix it.

[Tizer]

We could do all this at a fraction of what they are currently spending to stop the Victorian pile of parliament buildings in London from falling down. Shore that one up, make it safe and charge the tourists £20.00 a go to look at it and take photographs.

Alternatively, leave it empty and charge people £20 a time to throw stones at it!

[plaques]

Wasn't it Westminster Hall where Charles 1 was tried for promoting a civil war and causing excessive bloodshed? Fast forward 370 years and another civil war and excessive bloodshed among politicians. Will we a repetition of Charles 1 and Lady Jane Grey?

[Whyperion]

Panbiker, I was at college in the 1980s debating assorted voting systems for just the students union ( we had a two -tier system too- every motion had to be agreed by two consecutive site meetings - one was generally right wing finance in the city, the other left-wing arts and science just in the local borough, inevitably I dont think that much got carried. Given though we are nigh on 40 years on I am surprised there has been little progress.

Semi-Circular chamber in mid-country with housing - sounds like Loughborough University, I have no disagreement - or Stoke -on - Trent which needs a bit of extra life in it.

[Stanley]

I couldn't agree more about binning Gothic Westminster, adversarial seating and changing the voting system, we need to make voting so that every vote counts. Like the US we stick to the party system and they are in the same mess. It is supported by the 'Establishment', widely derided as mythical but still alive and well for an example see the Honours system.
Perhaps the best way to do this is vote a LibDem government in...... (Or give us executive powers....)
Historical note, it was coalition that got us through two world wars......

[chinatyke]

Historical note, it was coalition that got us through two world wars......

...only to give control back to the Germans!

Or perhaps the EU is a model of collective government?

[Stanley]

You think it's a laughing matter?

[plaques]

The Tory party is in meltdown over Brexit. The longer it goes on the greater the risk that it will fragment to a degree that it will never be able to form a single party government. The Tories only hope is to get rid of Mrs May but have burnt their boats by giving her a vote of confidence last year. Mrs May declares she's not going until she's done a Brexit deal and now seeks to put the blame on Labour for not doing as they are told. The hard right within the party agree with her but without the deal element. We will now see masses of column inches devoted to why its all Labour's fault and their intransigence and sitting on the fence trying to please everybody.

[PanBiker]

Indeed Stanley and regarding the coalitions. In times of war it is the only way forward as all have to be in the same mind. You cant fight a war if you are at war yourself across the chamber. This is the situation we have now precisely because Theresa May wanted to go it alone, It could all have been sorted now if parliament had been reformed into an all party coalition.

It shows how broken it all is though and we simply must have change. I will be bringing this discussion to our branch meeting when we are allowed normal business again. I want a branch resolution on it to go to the GC and then maybe passed to conference if there is enough support. Like I said, it needs a grown up conversation.

[Tizer]

The Tory party is in meltdown over Brexit.

And so is the Labour Party. They've split apart over the second referendum.
I'm getting quite excited!
When it gets to this stage what do British politicians do? Take a holiday of course!

[Stanley]

That sounds like a plan Ian. God knows we need something! I send the kids in Oz a 'not dead behind the door' email every morning. This morning I said that unfortunately the government is.... dead behind the door!
Quite right P and can you blame McDonnell for reacting? Labour will be used as a scapegoat and the trouble is many will believe it!
As far as I can see the hope is to get Mark IV passed in time to avert the EU elections. On present limited information it looks as though the barrier she faces is not so much agreeing with Labour but the frenzy of her rabid back-benchers to whom (for he had been to night school) any involvement with Labour is anathema. Lovely word, ("A formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine." Perfect fit!)
If EU elections do take place it will demonstrate more than Local Elections just how reviled Tories are in the country.
Let us never forget where all this started......

[plaques]

I suspect the workings of European parliament has always been a bit of a mystery to the average UK voter. We have had years of negative publicity generally false as it turns out, straight bananas etc, Then all those Health and Safety directives that stop you killing yourself / other people which although they can be a nuisance have a great deal of logic behind them. Its quite possible that Farage's sudden rise in popularity is exploiting this ingrained ignorance as a protest vote against the UK shambles. The protest vote then becomes a real problem when interpreted as a 'lets get out of Europe at all costs'. "Going to hell in a handcart" springs to mind.

[Tizer]

Thanks, Plaques, you've taken the words straight out of my mouth.
And when Stanley writes `Let us never forget where all this started...' we have also to remember that it goes back beyond Cameron, to Farage who frightened the ultra-right Tories and Cameron into action, and even further to decades of chipping away by the Eurosceptics.
Never mind, I still predict as I did three years ago that we'll find it is simply not possible to leave the EU.

[Stanley]

Dead right P and even a sceptic has to admit that the transparent logical way they conducted the negotiations was a lesson our lot should have learned early on but they to were blinded by the canards against 'bureaucratic unelected' politics. Completely untrue on all counts.
Quite right Tiz and even earlier if you count the fact that it was pre politics of Empire that formed the old Tory DNA behind the ERG.
They are back off holiday today. I suspect Labour aren't going to let the Tories off the hook and the EU elections will happen. I also have a suspicion that Tiz is right, one way or another Brexit isn't going to happen mainly because of the die-hards still shouting about Britain 'punching above its weight'. Have you noticed that Fox's 40 trade deals ready to sign hasn't happened? Every time he is questioned about progress he slips into double speak and avoids an answer. More obfuscation and lies.
On another matter, did I see that the man in charge of Prisons who promised to resign if eight named prisons hadn't improved in a year (and they are actually worse) was moved into Mordaunt's old job? If so, that was handy.....

[plaques]

I'm beginning to think that the Tories should re-brand their 'Conservative' name to the 'Colander Party' there are more holes in it than a sieve. Every headline seems to read about some 'secret' meeting or undisclosed cabinet meeting. Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson sacked over 'compelling evidence' he leaked Huawei security meeting details. is a typical example. Leaking statements is par for the course in politics either to wrong-foot your opponent or see how well it would be received. Unfortunately Mrs May has taken it too such an extreme that nobody believes what she says. 1922 committee Its perhaps understandable that 'Labour's shadow chancellor John McDonnell has said he does not trust the prime minister' But when the Tories themselves don't believe what she says. 'Tory MPs, Sir Graham Brady, amid calls for her to set a firm resignation date...It follows a request from the 1922 committee for "clarity" on the issue.' then we are in deep trouble. Meanwhile austerity continues, industry stagnates and Trump carries on will his bullying telling us and the world what to do.

[Tizer]

Breaking news...Lidington has finally admitted that we will have to take part in the EU elections on 23rd May. They've really known that would be the case for a long time now but pretended that we could avoid it so they could pressure people into accepting May's deal. They obviously think we're all stupid. `Brexit: UK 'has to fight European elections', says David Lidington' LINK

[Stanley]

I saw that report Tiz and it is as I suspected. The reason why they have been keeping off the subject is that they have been hoping against hope that May could pull a rabbit out of the bag with Mark IV and that's why, in desperation, she turned to Labour. Not that that will help because by doing so she has alienated even more of her own Party and of course the DUP. Notice that 'The Backstop' has dropped out of the news completely..
(Personally I can't see what Labour have to gain by bailing her out and I suspect that there was never any real intention of doing so.)
Getting Mark IV passed was the only way they could avoid the EU vote which is anathema to the Tory Party because the result will be an even more damning indictment of her Brexit strategies and the general standing of the Tories than the Local Elections were. The turnout will be miserable and when the results come in this will be cited as a reason to ignore the result. I shall vote simply to oppose the Tories.
Then there is the vexed question of just who will be elected and what the result will be in Brussels if they sit. Again, it is suggested that this will never happen as the vote will be cancelled before then by Brexit but I am not so sure about that. The EU are certainly worried by it because due to the feeling in the UK it is almost certain that a majority of Brexit candidates will be elected and with vital EU votes like the budget coming up the last thing Brussels needs is grit in the oyster.
Then there is the question of how much pay back and pension rights the new members will have whether they sit or not. Add to this the question UK taxpayers should be asking, what is it costing us....
From all sides the mess gets even worse and whilst that's bad for us just think what the effect will be on future relations with Europe. Whatever the end result is or how it is arrived at we have blown our credibility completely and the repercussions will be long lasting.

[Stanley]

May is now in direct conflict with the majority of her party. She has refused to be specific about when she leaves, clinging on like a limpet to a rock under attack from a raging sea. Tremendous character or pure bloody minded self preservation. I'll leave you to decide.
The Tory/Labour talks are kicked into the long grass again until next week. Would Mr Barnier say that we are wasting time? Described by a BBC political editor as KBO.
The official policy is to re-present Mark IV next week and save the day.... Really?
The public spending watchdog reveals that it warned DafT that they were open to legal action from the ferry companies before it happened but they were ignored.
David Brokenshire is explaining on Today why he is reversing his announcement that the lease owners in 166 apartment blocks would have to pay the costs of re-cladding.
Do you want any more cock-ups? If so have a look at the Beware of the Banks topic.....

[plaques]

Listened to George Osborne Osborne You Tube 5 mins. Its surprising how once they are out of office they talk a great deal more sense. He had little sympathy for Mrs May And made it clear that it was Labour's duty (read Corbyn) to become the Government and that there was no reason or obligation whatsoever to hand Mrs May a lifeline to sustain her government. He said he was against the referendum but as part of the 'team' was obliged to go along with it. This raises the question on whether our our democracy is actually a dictatorship.

[chinatyke]

Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom yesterday announced the dates for the Whitsun recess, which will run from May 24 to June 3. After the EU agreed a six-month delay to Brexit last month, European Council president Donald Tusk pleaded with Britain: ‘Please do not waste this time.’ But MPs are now due to have four recess periods lasting 83 days over this time.

When you include weekends that will be more than half of the 6 months that will be wasted. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right ... Stealers Wheel.

[Stanley]

You're right P, even Blair makes sense and Major is getting better as he ages. But that doesn't do us any good, we need to break this log jam. On the whole I am not a fan of a referendum, I think it would be just as divisive and not decide anything. Curiously the EU vote might be a catalyst forcing movement as I suspect the remain parties will wipe the slate especially with a low turnout.
As for dictatorship, I asked the same question when Blair took us to war.

[Whyperion]

I suspect the workings of European parliament has always been a bit of a mystery to the average UK voter. We have had years of negative publicity generally false as it turns out, straight bananas etc, Then all those Health and Safety directives that stop you killing yourself / other people which although they can be a nuisance have a great deal of logic behind them. Its quite possible that Farage's sudden rise in popularity is exploiting this ingrained ignorance as a protest vote against the UK shambles. The protest vote then becomes a real problem when interpreted as a 'lets get out of Europe at all costs'. "Going to hell in a handcart" springs to mind.

I am not certain about that, I recall at least one Radio 4 programme on how EU Parliament Works, and there was a BBC2? mini-series which covered how a UK MEP got legislation through in respect of some safety regulation or another, what it showed that apart from the official process- Commission, Council of Ministers and EU Parliament, much of the influence had to be through lunches and finding friends who would be minded to support the proposal to generate a mass - I think they have much the same kind of process of Three Readings following reviews for drafting, translation and logic in the proposed regulations, but it is an unwieldy mess when the problem of Brussels and Strasborg is concerned - something that BBC Nationwide investigated around the time of the mid 1970s referendum for remaining in the EEC. The system may have worked with 6 or 9 nation states with broadly the same kind of internal legislative thinking, but it starts to creak (and hence the fear ? of a EU nation state) as additional countries join.

On Govt expenditure on dodgy cladding I assume they will be attempting to recoup the costs as it goes along- but it does ask the question why they are not sufficiently funding social housing's backlog of repairs and maintenance- admittedly less dangerous but still a habitation fitness isse.

[Tizer]

Brexit: We're like a bus full of people heading down the road and realising that the road is going over the edge of a cliff. Half of them are shouting: `Turn left, there are fewer rocks there to fall on', and the other half `Turn right, the sea is less deep there'. It needs someone to point out that the solution is to stop the bus, turn around and go back.

[Stanley]

I think the message is vote for the Liberal candidate in the EU election.
Have you noticed how Downing Street only seems to be operating a skeleton service?
She has until October so no rush....
Meanwhile all the economic indices seem to indicate that there has been a stocking boom in industry and now the manufacturers have to carry the increased costs of that until at least October.....
A retired academic friend of mine found himself co-authoring a report for a sex abuse inquiry and it was so harrowing that he swore he wouldn't do another. He failed, he is now writing the draft 130,000 word report for a similar Scottish enquiry. All unpaid. This is the obverse of the SPADS and their high charges.