POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Big Kev wrote: 29 Aug 2019, 05:43 ...but is there enough time left for anyone to do anything about it? I suspect not. As I said previously 'we're all doomed'...
There is certainly enough time left to try - have a read of this analysis Kev...
`No-deal Brexit: Can MPs overrule the new prime minister?' LINK

Rees-Mogg on `Today' this morning claimed that no-one who voted in 2016 to leave the EU had changed their mind. That shows just how out of touch he is with the real world.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Not quite Tiz. He was clever and actually said "If you follow *****... you will know that.....". Still misleading and wrong but typical weasel words.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Big Kev wrote: 29 Aug 2019, 06:55 ..something has got to happen as we're all fed up with 3 years of apathy.
A quick recap on the events that led up to today's apathy. The referendum information was full half lies and miss representations. Nevertheless we voted for out. Mrs May jumped in and started the leaving process. This put her in the worst negotiating position possible. Everybody new negotiations would be long and complicated so we waited for some feed back. After 18 months we were told that she couldn't say anything because this would weaken her position. Then we started to hear 'No deal is better than a bad deal' but negotiations were continuing. Finally she reached a deal but it took a court order for it to be offered up to parliament for discussion. The deal she had negotiated was so bad it was rejected three times. She then left stage left. Enter Boris, He would get a better deal by the miraculous method of not talking to anybody. When it became clear this was another lie he shuts down parliament until there is no time to discuss the ongoing good deal he is not talking about.
However you look at it you can't blame people for being confused by whats gone on; equally you can't put three years of incompetent leadership down to apathy of the electorate. The apathy is a result of the lies and deception that our Tory government have been pushing ever since Cameron started this fiasco.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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The apathy is on my part, I voted to stay so have not listened to any of the political ramblings...
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Big Kev wrote: 29 Aug 2019, 12:37 The apathy is on my part, I voted to stay so have not listened to any of the political ramblings...
I've been called apathetic but I couldn't care less.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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In some ways ChangeUK or whatever were not prepared for what has happened, there is some thinking in mind that the first rabble that formed changeUK were not the kind of folk I was bothered about, but with the likes of (experienced, if not always right, Lord Young, voicing disconcerns), there may be some scope for a break up of the tory party into a more liberal (but not libdem) section of independent thinkers, leaving the others to effectively join with the brexit party. Quite what a media led electorate would think , or do, I dont know. TV Wise Portillio is supposed to be doing an analysis of the death of the conservatives , and Paxman covering why our policitians so bad (as in incompetant).
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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I saw a video of the activist Paul Mason last night on Newsnight whipping up a small group gathered outside Parliament with a sort of 'call and response' routine, where he made the mob repeat what he said phrase by phrase.The subject was a demonstartion in Whitehall on Saturday.

The final phrase was words to the effect "we're coming to effing get you".

They repeated it like sheep - if sheep could talk. :smile: I think he had Boris Johnson in mind. He was in the studio afterwards, and no comment was made about it. Can you do that on the BBC?

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I object to Rees Mogg saying my outrage is a candy-floss confection. This from a man who has moved his hedge fund to Ireland and will do very nicely out of Brexit thank you. As for the argument that preventing the House sitting is normal practice and not political, anyone who believes that is barking mad and hasn't read any history. This is as political as Cromwell ejecting the Rump Parliament.
I saw a clip of one of Johnson's cabinet members explaining to foreign politicians that the cunning ploy wasted much more than five days but can find no mention of it on the web. He was smiling at the time.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Stanley wrote: 30 Aug 2019, 02:09 As for the argument that preventing the House sitting is normal practice and not political, anyone who believes that is barking mad and hasn't read any history.
Gina miller agrees with you... `Proroguing parliament sets a horrifying precedent. I’m going to court to stop it ' Guardian
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If ever there was an issue that warranted that much-used phrase `the elephant in the room' it's this - whatever happens next, whether it's a no-deal Brexit, a Brexit deal, or a no-Brexit, there is going to be a lot of anger and trouble. Remainers may be objecting to a no-deal Brexit but they've had 3 years to resign themselves to Brexit itself. In contrast the nation's Leavers have reached fever pitch and they're divided between deal and no-deal. Whatever happens they're going to be the ones getting angry when they find post-Brexit Britain isn't the wonderful place they've been promised.
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The BBC News site say's Scotland's edition of `The Times' claims the Scottish Conservative party is considering splitting from the wider Tory party following Ruth Davidson's decision to step down as leader, and the Daily Record says that Scottish "independence seems more likely than ever" after "Britain's best battler raised the white flag". Trouble at mill for the Tories! :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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We are endlessly being told that the result of the referendum is the 'will of the people', democracy fulfilled. It then became clear that people had voted on promises of big handouts to the NHS, trade deals far superior to those of the EU and to make Britain great again. In truth we were never given the full facts about the pros and cons of leaving just vague statements that it would lead to the land of milk and honey. Gradually, drip by drip, the nightmare of leaving is just coming out and the picture it paints is not what the average person would expect. Even now three and half years down the line the Tory Government refuses to release the official report with Joe Public having to rely on leaks and opinions. But the people have spoken and that's it, no chance of changing your mind the die is set, yet at regular intervals we conduct general elections where people clearly change their minds with the incumbent government and sitting MPs thrown out on their ears. This is all in line with the old adage, 'when the facts change I change my mind'. Why are referendums treated any different to elections? Not only have the Tories been treating everybody with contempt by keeping things secret they are now trying the same trick on parliament itself. They should be thrown out as quickly as possible.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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I agree Tiz about the aftermath of a No Deal exit. Whoever wins the next election and has to deal with it is going to have a rough ride. This could be part of the thinking behind any election. Johnson is already disarming criticism by asserting that No Deal will be down to the Remainers.
As for the Scottish Tories splitting from the London-centric lot, that's been on the cards for a long time and may be forced on them if and when there is another Independence move which seems more and more likely. If you remember the Scottish Labour Party blamed London for their decline because they treated them like a Northern office rather than part of the party. Same syndrome with the Tories.
So, Cameron's Catastrophe heads into its final phase, decimates the Tory Party, throws the UK into depression and breaks the Union. The vultures are already gathering as the falling pound makes UK companies vulnerable to foreign capital. Hedge Funds and parasitic 'consultants' rub their hands with glee. What a legacy, historians will be picking this over for the next 100 years.
I also believe that eventually this destroys any reputation we once had built up after WW2. How long does plucky Britain get to 'punch over its weight'?
One thing (of many!) that has to be scrutinised is the role of disinformation and downright lying that has been used as a weapon. I have said all along that the venom directed at Corbyn, though enabled by Labour's internal divisions, has been part of the strategy. Notice that the pre-election massaging of the public is the adoption by Johnson at al of Labour plans for re-investing in public services and society.
I note that sub-consciously I have accepted No Deal as inevitable.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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I agree that `the falling pound makes UK companies vulnerable to foreign capital'. UK property also becomes vulnerable to foreign money. Banks are predicting that a no-deal Brexit could precipitate a drop in UK house prices of 15% or more. What bothers me most is that we are sliding backwards, away from civilised behaviour and into the barbarism of centuries ago; away from democracy and towards tyranny. The tools available to tyrants today are much more powerful than those of the past. We probably need a short sharp shock now if we are to avoid much worse later.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Still trying to get my head round Johnson's 'No Deal' strategy. Initially it was he wasn't going to offer anything up for negotiation it was up to the EU to make changes to Mrs May's negotiations which I assume he would then consider. The EU made it clear that there would be no changes to what had been offered and ten days ago Mrs Merkel made it clear that it was Boris's responsibility to come up with a plan within 30 days which they (EU) would consider. The boot being clearly on the other foot to which Boris agreed. With 20 days left Boris's plan still seems to be to sit there doing nothing in the hope that a 'no deal' situation will make the EU see sense? He even goes so far as to suggest that a law to make a deal compulsory before leaving would weaken his 'do nothing' strategy. Should his plan fail he can confidently say it wasn't his fault for doing nothing but those who stopped him doing nothing. A variation on the phrase 'Don’t just do something, stand there.' (Lewis Carroll ?). At the end of all this when we have collapsed into a black hole he will blame the population for their apathy about him doing nothing.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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"What bothers me most is that we are sliding backwards"
I agree Tiz and as you know I have suspected that this was the plan all along, to drag us back to the 19th century when the workers had no rights and could be controlled by manipulating wages. Think about austerity and the attack on the Welfare State. The plan is succeeding, they has got us back to the 1930s already, compare the ERG to Mosley's fascists and note the match.
P, I don't think Johnson has a plan, he has a brain but is too lazy to use it for anything beyond his own selfish ends. This is how people like Cummings, an unelected SPAD has managed to dictate policy. The Tories have been using attack dogs to do the dirty work for a long time.
I forecast a long time ago that Tory policies would be most damaging to society. That has also worked. Fractures are opening up even in the Union. Watch for a rise in gated communities. In two years we could be making comparisons with the Weimar Republic and then the call will be for 'A Strong Leader'. Deep Joy...
In the end this ploy will fail but I am afraid we will spend decades repairing the damage. Can you remember Maggie's Grand Plan? We are still dealing with Thatcher's Children.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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You are all pessimists. No wonder your country is failing. What happened to the old adage CAN DO, WILL DO? Maybe you can't stop what is happening but you can dam well make your country great again and not become German sycophants! Good job people didn't have your attitude 80 years ago. :biggrin2:
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That China, is total rubbish, and demonstrates that you have no inkling of what is happening in the real world outside your totalitarian bubble. It is the same Jingoistic nonsense being spouted by the wreckers who want us out of the EU for their own ends.
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Johnson has issued a statement saying that Tory rebels are opening the door to Corbyn who would plunge the country into chaos. Really?? I thought he and his ilk had already done that! What is his definition of chaos?
I suspect it is any outcome which is contrary to his jingoistic and totally destructive policies.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Stanley wrote: 01 Sep 2019, 03:53 That China, is total rubbish...
I've told you before that I'm an ultracrepidarian! :biggrin2:
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China, this is no joking matter. You have completely missed the importance of what is happening here.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Stanley wrote: 01 Sep 2019, 05:50 China, this is no joking matter.
You've told me before with respect to the same subject and I understand your concerns. I tend to be a fatalist if I cannot alter things: whatever will happen, will happen. I either do something about it or make the best of a bad job. Bitching about it does no good.

Getting 2 million or even 5 million signatures on a petition is a long way short of the 17m who voted for the opposite. Do a Cromwell and take over Parliament, or a Citizen Smith and instigate a revolution! Power to the People!

There is something amusing, in a weird way, watching lemmings run to their fate.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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The latest offbeat theory of dealing with the Irish backstop is now doing its rounds. I say theory but anything associated with Johnson is always possible. The idea is that the UK withdraws completely from the Irish customs border and lets things flaw as though it was never there. The control of goods, people, and customs duty would all fall on the EU. This action would put the blame on the EU so that any any friction between Northern Ireland and the Republic including the possibility of the 'troubles' starting up again would be their fault. Sounds a good cunning plan until you start thinking about it and then inconsequential items like drugs, guns, and illegal immigrants start to cross your mind but we won't mention these.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Stanley wrote: 01 Sep 2019, 04:41 Johnson has issued a statement saying that Tory rebels are opening the door to Corbyn who would plunge the country into chaos. Really?? I thought he and his ilk had already done that!...
If I had to choose between Bojo's chaos and Corbyn's chaos I'd opt for Corbyn; but, given the chance, I'd prefer Swinson to either of them. Unfortunately our political system leans too much in favour of the big parties.
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I still believe Johnson's role is as a kamikaze pilot and he knows it and revels in the idea. He's going to sink his opponents and bounce us out of the EU and enjoy all the publicity, good or bad. He's doesn't want to be PM, just the man who took Britain out of the EU. Just think of the book royalties, after-dinner speeches and chat-up lines!
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I can picture Trump rushing to his twitter account to respond to this.. :smile:
`Rise of Donald Trump is ‘obscuring lessons of the second world war’, says Sadiq Khan: Mayor of London condemns US president as ‘poster boy for white nationalism’ and Boris Johnson as ‘ever more right wing’ LINK
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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The focus of things seems t o have gone back to the 'backstop', as it did last year and it is being promoted as the only stumbling block to an agreement. Boris says it must go, and Barnier says it must stay. There's a lot more to it than that.

What a a mess! There's an enormous number of issues, which all mean different things to different people, all driven by a simple question we were asked three years ago.

The (rejected) 'agreement' is well over 500 pages long, and was written by the EU. I haven't read it, and I doubt many people including MP's actually have done. I found this extract yesterday, by a chap called John Ashworth. I always doubted that we would 'get back control of our fisheries', and what's all that about EU military interventions? I thought NATO did that not the EU, and that there would never be an EU military force.
There I go being naive again. :smile:

The next week few weeks will be historic. I'm ordering extra popcorn. . . .


I confess that I have not read every word. There are parts which I have only skimmed over, concentrating on the sections I am most interested in. The document is very heavy going as nearly every paragraph is cross-referenced to a Treaty, Regulation or Directive, and each one has to be looked up, read and understood before moving on. It takes hours.

One issue on which I felt the EU had particularly humiliated us was defence. Here is one particularly disturbing extract from the Withdrawal Agreement:

Article 124 Specific arrangements relating to the Union’s external action

Part 6 During the transition period, the United Kingdom shall not provide commanders of civilian operations, heads of mission, operation commanders or force commanders for missions or operations conducted under Articles 42, 43 and 44 TEU [Treaty on European Union], nor shall it provide the operational headquarters for such missions or operations or serve as framework nation for Union battlegroups. During the transition period, the United Kingdom shall not provide the head of any operational actions under Article 28 TEU.

I looked up Articles 28, 42, 43 and 44 from the Treaty on European Union and it appears to me that during any transitional period, the EU would be able to make use of our forces but they would not be under British command. What a humiliation!

I digress. My main area of expertise is Fisheries. I will start with the effects of the Withdrawal Agreement on the catching sector – in other words, fishermen. I will tackle the marketing sector later, as there are more than 30 regulations to check!

Article 130 of the Withdrawal Agreement discusses specific arrangements relating to fishing opportunities. It contains four paragraphs which require the reader to cross reference to articles 43(3) TEU and point (b) of Article 129(2). I won’t go into all the details, but suffice it to say that these few paragraphs give the EU everything it requires – in other words, access to our waters under the same terms as when we were a member state.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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The European Defence Agency (see Wikipedia and EDF ) was established in 2004 and there has been continued assessment of the need for the EU nations to cooperate in military operations during emergencies. This has included discussions of emergency battle groups that could be formed by willing member states. However the creation of such military groups would require a unanimous decision from the European Council. At present, as an EU member, the UK could veto it.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

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Tizer wrote: 01 Sep 2019, 16:07 At present, as an EU member
Yes - but when we leave on October the 31st as Mr Johnson assures us will be the case, :smile: - we will still be liable to be asked to join in the fun, but not vote about it, or provide any leadership.

I've no idea what will happen in the next few weeks, but I feel fairly sure there will not be a conclusion to it all.
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