Winged Heroes

[PanBiker]

Good pictures Tiz, quite a few of the BBMF aircraft I visited at Conningsby.

[Tizer]

I love that close up photo of the Spitfire cockpit, 1st left in the 2nd row. It's now my PC wallpaper!

[Stanley]

Good pics. Isn't it great that we have so many images available to remind us.... Watched Memphis Belle again last night, they had repeated it and I recorded the film. Thought about my old mate Bob Jacobsen, 35 missions as a Tail End Charlie with the 100th Bomber Group stationed in Lincolnshire. They were so young......

[Stanley]

Fancy a brand new late model Spitfire? Did you catch this news this morning? (LINK) Some experts reckon they could be in as new condition and worth a lot of money.

[PanBiker]

Fascinating story this, I wonder what the ownership status is. I would think they would have been written off by the RAF when they issued the order to bury them. They will not be subject to our treasure laws so I wonder what the deal is. Unless of course they are still on our books, in which case one would assume that Burma could charge some form of storage rate on them. One thing is for certain, they represent many millions of pounds in monitory value which will almost certainly have a major effect on how the story pans out.

[Tizer]

I'd make do with one of them. There's a slightly different version of this story, published in April, and also a mention of the reputed stash of planes in Australia.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... per-planes

[Stanley]

It's a nice story and just for once, nothing bad about it! We need news like this these days!

[Wendyf]

I've been trying without success to identify a plane that flew quite low overhead this afternoon making what I would call an "old fashioned" noise. It was pale green and apparently unmarked, medium sized with twin propellers and an H shaped tail. It had straight wings which were squared off at the tip, not rounded. Any ideas?

[Stanley]

You'll need one of our experts on that one Wendy, I think I've seen the same one but don't know what it is. In my readi8ng I have been coming across the Shturmovik on the Eastern front so I looked it up. (LINK)

[PanBiker]

Was it at about 2.30 yesterday afternoon Wendy? If it was I saw it as we were walking up Bob Prestons from Cockshot Bridge it was going in your direction. First drew my attention with the sound of the engine(s) and it looked like a biplane to me but it was very high up and not easy to see. Cruising maybe about 80mph. Too high to get a photo with the small digital.

[Wendyf]

It was heading North over us Ian and pretty low, but as we are nearly 1000ft up anyway....not a bi plane though.

[PanBiker]

So twin engine monoplane with dual rudders (like a Lancaster) at the back. If it was the same one I saw the engine noise was definitely not high powered so not a WWII variant. More likely something from the early 1930's maybe? We need Tizer's encyclopaedic knowledge to give us a hint.

[Tizer]

Interesting, but I think it's likely to be something modern and slow that has `older sounding' engines. I doubt there is anything from the 1930s still flying that fits the oberved details, especially the compound tail with twin fins - the old Whitley, Hendon, Harrow bombers for instance. Handley Page were fond of twin fin tails. Of course the Me 110 and Dornier bombers had this tail too but, again, not likely to be flying (at least in the UK). There is a Do17 being raised from the Goodwin Sands but we're unlikely to see that flying! Was the plane you spotted big enough to be a bomber or was it fighter sized? Was the cockpit a fighter type, raised above the fuselage and over the wings, or bomber type, at the front and more integrated into the fuelage? Probably you couldn't see it well enough to know.

I suggest it will be a modern civil aircraft, perhaps with engines that sound `older' because it is designed to fly slowly for long periods (e.g. taking photos). There is a white twin-engined plane that flies slowly over here sometimes - usually not on a straight course but winding and circling - and sounds older but it's always high up and I never have the bioculars to hand!

(Early on in WW2 the twin tail was quite common and the observers became adept at distinguishing different types of twin (compound) tail. They would ask if the horizontal tailplane extended out beyond the fins, and if so by a large or small amount; did the fins extend below the tailplane; was it a twin tail or a triple with a central fin; what was the shape of the fins - angular or rounded sides etc. R.A. Saville-Sneath who wrote the officially approved `Aircraft Recognition' book published in 1941 by Penguin applied his knowledge of bird watching to the identification of aircraft.)

[Wendyf]

Unfortunately I didn't get chance to take everything in Tiz. It did have a late 1950's, early 60's look to its design....the squared off wings etc. It was moving at a steady speed.
As I was writing about it I got a sense of deja vu. I have a feeling I might have seen it, and asked the same question, a couple of years ago!

[Stanley]

Report that William Walker oldest surviving Battle of Britain pilot has died. LINK to Telegraph obituary.

[Stanley]

It might be a good day to remember my Friend John Pudney's poem written at the height of the Battle of Britain:

For Johnny
by John Pudney


Do not despair
For Johnny-head-in-air;
He sleeps as sound
As Johnny underground.
Fetch out no shroud
For Johnny-in-the-cloud;
And keep your tears
For him in after years.

Better by far
For Johnny-the-bright-star,
To keep your head,
And see his children fed.

[Tizer]

Bad news...XH558, the flying Vulcan bomber, looks likely to be grounded due to wing problems that are too expensive to overcome:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-so ... e-19952395

[Stanley]

Nice link and sad news but inevitable. I remember that during the war and just after we saw lots of activity in the air as planes flew out of Woodford. I can remember the strange beasties that had jet engines nailed onto them! Needless to say we were very aware of planes overhead and could tell whether they were "one of ours".

[Stanley]

Deleted spam reply and spammer. Posting to clear the name off the topic.

[Tizer]

I'm pleased to see that rumours of the Red Arrows being closed down are not true and are just a part of the usual `crying wolf' whenever there are cuts in defence spending. David Cameron was in India at the time and had to scotch the rumours quickly because he was supporting sale of Hawk jets to the government there! I'm supporting them with my computer wallpaper downloaded from their web site....

[Stanley]

Could be one time when knee jerk policy making produced a good result!

[PanBiker]

It's a number of years now since Sally and myself were over in France visiting her Great Uncle Thomas's grave up near the Belgian border. I recorded this trip in a thread on the old site. We were travelling light on the motorbike with a small tent and sleeping bags and a couple of changes of clothes plus our motorbike leathers and waterproof gear. After the pilgrimage to Toms WWI grave we rode down through France to my brothers house a few Km North of Limoges. We spent a few days there and took the advantage to wash all our clothes before heading back North spending the last few days of our jaunt round France based just outside Bayeux at Chateau Martragny which brings me to the purpose of this post.

While we were there we found out that shortly after D Day 1944 the Château had been used as a forward airbase for the RAF. They have one or two photo's in the campsite bar that gave tantalising glimpses into one of the past usages of what is now a peaceful and tranquil family campsite. While I was there I made a mental note to try and find out a bit more about what had actually taken place at the site in the months after the invasion. I have not discovered a full history or anything like that but while trolling the internet I was led to snippet from someone else searching for the same information and then from there to a fascinating link on the WW2Talk site.

Ii is a locked reference topic that covers the whole of the logistic and tactical setup used by the RAF in 2nd Tactical Air Force during WWII after D Day. It's a fascinating read for anyone interested in this theatre of operations. It covers everything from the forward landing strips, order of battle, equipment deployments, operational procedures, personnel roles and a host of other information. It gives a real insight into the logistical requirements of a forward air based fighting unit.

The Château site is listed as B7 Martragny. 1200 metre long, 40 metre wide. Square Mesh Track. It was established on the 20th June. This size of strip was used for fighter aircraft, Spitfire, Mustang and Typhoon. These would be deployed in ground support or seek and destroy roles depending on requirements other roles were to patrol and probe to bring out the enemy fighters and draw them into battle thus robbing the enemy ground troops of air cover.

I found out that the mobile ground radar operated on the 1.5M band which is a frequency of about 200 - 210MHz. This gave an effective range of up to 120 miles for aircraft at high altitudes. It used a rotating dish antenna that swept at 4 rpm. The RAF also employed radar operating on the 25cm band which is 1.2Ghz in the spectrum and was the same frequency that the Germans used. Shorter range and lower altitude scanning but could be used when the Germans jammed the lower frequency VHF radar. This could not be jammed as the enemy would be blinding themselves.

There is host of other information including the fact that RAF personnel were issued with two sets of battledress. Standard issue in Air Force blue and also Army issue khaki (with RAF insignia) for wearing in forward operating positions or close proximity to the front line so that they would not be mistaken for Germans in their Field Grey uniforms. In the early days after D Day there was no direct communication between the Air Force controllers and their Army counterparts. The problem was that All the RAF radio equipment worked on VHF and the longer range equipment needed by the Army on the lower HF bands. The problem was sorted by equipping trucks with both RAF 1143 sets and Army 19 sets (as used in tanks). The 19 set has both A and B sets, one on VHF for short range tank to tank and HF for longer range communication. The trucks so equipped could receive on one frequency and re-transmit on the other and vice versa so were in effect cross band transceivers. This allowed the RAF to feed info to the ground troops and the Army to update the RAF instantly. RAF "Rovers" were deployed in forward spotting positions to guide strafing and bombing attacks directly ahead of ground troops. "Servicing Commandos" were deployed as the first RAF personnel on the ground to provide re-arming and other support roles. They were trained in combat techniques to be able to defend their positions and also to be deployed via standard naval methods generally not long after the assault troops. C Flight 226 squadron flew listening missions over enemy territory to pick up ground transmitted signals from resistance groups operating behind enemy lines. They were provided with transmitters that radiated a vertical beamed signal that was coned shape from the ground. As their was little horizontal radiation using this technique it made it almost impossible for the German DF trucks to find them. The cone beam radiated out to about a 50 mile diameter area at 20,000 feet that 226 squadron aircraft would fly through to retrieve their transmissions. All fascinating stuff and a very good read if you have a couple of hours to spare.

WW2Talk - 2nd Tactical Air Force - 2 TAF

[Stanley]

Fascinating....
Your mention of the square mesh reinforced runways for fighters reminded me of this, also posted on the old site. It's an excerpt from me memoirs.

"A regular customer in Ayr was John McKellar who lived with his sister out near the coast on the Girvan road at a farm which had a Gaelic name that sounded like Muckyduck, I’m sure it isn’t spelt like that but that’s how it is pronounced. Almost every week he bought two best heifer calves from us, they were always specially selected for him and kept in the wagon until he came. He paid top price and got the best.
I always helped him to bag them up and very often he would go for a bit of lunch first and take me with him. One day, he told me an incredible story but knowing John I’m prepared to bet that every word was true. He got a letter from the Supervisor of the British Rail sidings at Port Alexander, north west of Glasgow, asking him if he would contact the yard and make an appointment to discuss what they were going to do with his train load of steel! John rang the man and asked him what was going on, he pointed out that he was a farmer near Ayr and knew nothing about wagons full of steel, were they sure they had the right man? The BR person said that they were absolutely certain, they had done a lot of research. He reminded John that a relation of his had owned and operated a steel fabrication company in Glasgow during the war and as the last surviving relative, he was responsible for the offending train. John agreed to go to Port Alexander and meet the man.
When he arrived at the marshalling yard he was taken over to the far side where there was a very large string of wagons parked. It was obvious they had been there for a long while because there were young trees growing round it, John said they finally agreed it had been sat there for 27 years! He was shown one of the original consignment notes that were clipped to each wagon to direct railway staff as to how to dispose of the consignment at each stage of the journey and it had his relation’s firm’s name on it. He gathered that BR were slightly embarrassed about the train and the length of time it had been there. They were about to develop part of the yard for other purposes and the easiest way out of their predicament was to find the legal owner of the consignment and unload the whole problem on to them, John had become spot ball!
John took a copy of the consignment note and went away to seek advice, his solicitor investigated the matter and eventually came up with what seemed to be an explanation. Closer examination of the consignment note had given some clues, the wagons were carrying strips of perforated metal that were used in the Western Desert during the African campaign for making temporary landing strips. There was a consignment number on the note which identified the customer as the Ministry of Supply and the reason why the wagons were at Port Alexander was because someone had put this on the notes instead of Port of Alexandria which was in Egypt! Once the wagons arrived in the siding, as far as the old London, Midland and Scottish Railways was concerned, they were at their destination!
Several legal problems now presented themselves, the LMSR was defunct having been amalgamated into British Railways when rail was nationalised after the war so BR was deeming the owner of the steel to be the owner of the wagons also. The Ministry of Supply was long defunct but a search of the records revealed that the consignment was officially listed as being ‘Lost at Sea due to Enemy Action’, a ploy no doubt used to account for the absence of the consignment and Her Majesty’s Government had no interest in the matter. The legal advice was that John was perfectly safe in law to accept ownership and scrap the lot! He got quotations for the removal, picked a firm who came in, scrapped the lot and paid out! John never said what happened to the money but I got the impression that he wasn’t the only family member left so someone somewhere had a windfall."

[Stanley]

See this LINK for the history of the Boeing 314. I knew a lady in NY, Opal Hess, who was a 'hostess' on the early transatlantic flights grom Gander to Ireland and in those days the qualification was that she had to be a registered nurse. Not strictly 'Winged Heroes' but it took special courage to fly these first long-distance routes.

[Tizer]

Marvellous posts, thanks! The TAF web page is a treasure trove. On the Boeing page I loved the image of the airmail postal cover and also the story about the plane that took the long route home from NZ when war broke out in the Pacific:
"At the outbreak of the war in the Pacific, the Pacific Clipper was en route to New Zealand. Rather than risk flying back to Honolulu and being shot down by Japanese fighters, it was decided to fly west to New York. Starting on December 8, 1941 at Auckland, New Zealand, the Pacific Clipper covered over 31,500 miles (50,694 km) via such exotic locales as Surabaya, Karachi, Bahrain, Khartoum and Leopoldville. The Pacific Clipper landed at Pan American's LaGuardia Field seaplane base at 7:12 on the morning of January 6, 1942."