FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 08 Mar 2019, 07:51

Sorry Kev it was no non reflective glass. In other words, plain glass.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Nolic » 08 Mar 2019, 08:05

Thanks Comrade for the reference. Just looked on Amazon and its £94... a bit much for me so I'll see what the library can do. Just found an online version at https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/ ... &q&f=false. Nolic
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 08 Mar 2019, 08:11

Stanley wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 07:51
Sorry Kev it was no non reflective glass. In other words, plain glass.
I'll have a look in The Range, I'll take a few pics of what they have :biggrin2:
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 08 Mar 2019, 09:43

Kev, sorry to muck you about but all bets are off. I have given the print away to someone who has more right to it than me.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Tripps » 08 Mar 2019, 12:48

Nolic wrote:
07 Mar 2019, 07:22
I'm doing a Future Learn course
Future Learn

I found out about these people from my intellectual next door neighbours. I couldn't find anything to cover what I was looking for, but found another course that appealed to me. I let things slide (of course), and ran out of time, but I've paid the fairly reasonable fee, and now have as much time as I wish to finish the job.

I may let you know of my progress. Meanwhile

Arrivederchi :smile:

PS I like he fact that they say - 'at the end of this course you will be able to. . . . '
That's what the army used to insist on. :smile:

PPS - The Tudors course looks good - perhaps as a prelude to reading Wolf Hall. So much to read - so little time. :smile:
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 09 Mar 2019, 00:54

Stanley wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 09:43
Kev, sorry to muck you about but all bets are off. I have given the print away to someone who has more right to it than me.....
No worries, I've not been out looking yet :-)
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 09 Mar 2019, 01:00

Big Kev wrote:
07 Mar 2019, 17:41
Stanley wrote:
05 Mar 2019, 06:34
Image

Many years ago I noticed a very ornate cast iron down-spout on the row of houses on Wellhouse Road almost opposite the fire station. I thought I had a pic of it but when it was replaced with a nasty modern plastic pipe I couldn't find it. Imagine my delight yesterday when I realised that another of the spouts had survived. All I can assume is that it has been hidden by the creeper up that side of the building. Only a small thing but I am so pleased, they don't make rainwater goods like this today.
I know whose house this is so will have a chat, there may be some historical documentation.
There are some documents, I will have opportunity to scan them at sometime. I didn't have time to chat for too long, as we were in a pub in Clitheroe, but did establish the two were built in 189?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 09 Mar 2019, 03:26

That sounds about right Kev..... I'd be interested to see the docs.....

Image

Here's the 1907 Revision 25" OS of the immediate area. The houses aren't on the 1892 survey. I noticed on the 1892 map that Wellhouse Road was marked as Station Road even though Wellhouse had been built long before. I wonder if the surveyors made a mistake? I looked up the abbreviation Cr and it seems to mean either Crescent or Cross. I suspect that the ones on this map are the latter and could be surveying marks. WM means weighing machine. SP means Signal Post. LB is a letter box.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 09 Mar 2019, 07:20

In recent years it was a Dr Brown who lived there, he sold it to the current owner.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 09 Mar 2019, 08:17

That would be Ian, he was my doctor until he left.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 09 Mar 2019, 09:54

Ian Brown used to live down Brogden Lane when he was first doctoring in the town.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 10 Mar 2019, 04:14

Another Dr Brown then?
I got my copy of Whitaker's 'History of Craven' yesterday. I have looked at it in the past but not gutted it. I can see that it's going to be a rich source of forgotten corners especially the pedigrees.

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Ex Rochdale Reference Library and in good condition apart from the spine but that's forgiven after over 140 years!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 11 Mar 2019, 06:35

Image

I wonder how many people walking through Valley Gardens realise the importance of what is now an ornamental stream running through the valley? This is of course the head race conveying water from the Corn Mill Weir behind Butts to what was the large Corn Mill Dam as enlarged by Bracewell around 1850 which is now filled in and is a garage site. It used to go under Gisburn Road via a culvert but is now diverted back into Butts Beck this side of the bridge. The Corn Mill had a large water wheel but Bracewell modernised it by installing a water turbine instead. This was the sole power for the mill, augmented by a small steam engine until early in the 20th century when grinding ceases and 'Cramp' (Anthony) Hoyle runs the mill as an animal feed wholesaler.
I'm glad we had enough imagination to preserve the course when Valley Gardens became a public space. It's an asset to the town and thanks to David Whipp's initiative in overseeing the Stream and Steam Trail there is a record. It might be a good time to revitalise that.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 12 Mar 2019, 04:31

Image

Engraving of the ruins of Bracewell Hall in the late 18th or very early 19th century.
Whitaker is paying for its keep already. I had occasion to look up the Tempests yesterday and found this image. I also picked up that Roger Tempest held the manor of Bracewell as early as 1135. This was a 16th century build replacing an original smaller hall. Richard Tempest of Bowling near Bradford demolished the hall in 1656, he was born at Bracewell but lived at Bowling. In 1657 Richard was in prison for debt and died there later the same year and effectively this was the end of this branch of the family. Compare with this later photograph c.1850.

Image

This comparison confirms that the engravings in Whitaker are very accurate if they are the same standard as this one. Nice!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 13 Mar 2019, 05:11

Looking at the image above and doing a bit of digging.... Whitaker published 'A History of Craven' in 1805 so the original drawing, subsequently engraved for publication must have been late 18th century, a good guess would be before 1775. The other thing that strikes me is that when Richard Tempest had it demolished he didn't do a very good job. Of course he was hard up at the time and I know that because of this the estate was being transferred to a trustee, no doubt for legal reasons. These considerations no doubt are the reason for the demolition, if not, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Image

This estate map is dated 1717. I can't make out the name of who commissioned it on the screen. I'll have a look at the original. That's better! It was commissioned by Thomas Weddell and his name doesn't crop up until later. A bit of a mystery, I shall have to dig further!
Later..... I might have found an explanation. Stephen Tempest of Broughton lodged an action in 1717 to stop the sale to Weddell on the grounds that the the will conveying the estate to the vendor was not valid and this seems to explain the confused picture of ownership at that point.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 14 Mar 2019, 05:22

I have been dipping into my Whitaker for information about the current round of articles and I'm beginning to realise what a wonderful resource it is. It's very old fashioned of course but over the years Whitaker's work has been recognised as very reliable. He has my confidence and I am going to have to do some serious reading!
I can see that this is going to influence Forgotten Corners....
I had occasion to go digging in the index this morning and came across the following entries that have a bearing on one of my recent posts.
Mention in 1822 Baines Directory of William Brown as Victualler at the New Inn, West Marton. [West Marton listed separately from East Marton where Robert Bond is given as Victualler at the Cross Keys so no confusion there.]
In 1801 a John Bond had a water spinning mill at ‘Marton’ and had insurance cover as follows: Mill £40, Nearby spinning shop, £30. Millwork £30. Machinery (mill) £20. Machinery (spinning) £100. Stock in mill £50. Stock for spinning £30. John Bond was also the publican in 'Marton’ (East Marton?) The mill was stopped by 1820. In ‘Marriner’s Yarns’ by George Ingle, page 32 George states that East and West Marton on the Leeds and Liverpool canal had a small cotton mill run by a local publican called John Bond. His name occurs several times in the ledgers of Marriners at Greengates Mill, Keighley and twenty five of the hand loom weavers in these ledgers worked in Marton and others at Broughton and Newton. Bond may have been a local agent for Marriners, putting out yarn to local HLW. For his name is scrawled across several pages in the ledgers. In the Craven Herald of 05/07/1929 Tom and Daniel Demaine, two Barnoldswick weavers, were up in court for poaching on the Gledstone estate. They were first seen by Robert Hall of 25 Edmondson Street in Barnoldswick (In the 1960s Bob Hall was the estate agent at Gledstone and lived in the North Lodge, he was a noted breeder of Border terriers) The Gledstone gamekeeper Sidney T England gave evidence and the two men were fined £2 each and costs for shooting rabbits near Southfield Bridge. The estate agent at Gledstone at that time was W H Bond, any relation?


Also..... 1838.
William Atkinson in his unpublished memoir ‘Old Barlick’ notes on page 12 that an entry in the West Riding directory for 1838 says that there was a public house at West Marton called the Heber Arms. The publican was Henry Langstroth in that year. Quoting from the same directory he says that Marton contained 443 inhabitants and 2310 acres. Two neighbouring villages together with the hamlet of Marton Scars. Mrs Henry Cholmondley as heiress of the Heber Family is Lady of the Manor and owner of Marton Hall in which was born Reginald Heber, a noted Divine, who died in 1804 and of whose family was Bishop Heber. R H Roundell Esquire has a large estate there and Gledstone Hall.


Note the discrepancy in names for the pub, the directories are very accurate and it looks as though the name of the pub changed between 1822 and 1838.

Then I found this entry.... Nelson. Sir Amos.
LTP transcript 84/SP/011. Page 5. Stephen Pickles talks about his father and Amos Nelson starting manufacturing in the same year, 1881. They were friends and both were teetotallers. Stephen says that Amos bought the Gledstone Estate and that the previous owner, Roundell, who was also a prohibitionist, had closed the pubs at both Martons and Elslack. Sir Amos sold Barn Cottage, Thornton in Craven to Stephen [b. 1856 and this Stephen’s father] for £130 in 1930. Stephen knew Harriett who was the daughter of the estate agent at West Marton, a man called Hargreaves. He said that she was engaged to a lad who worked in a bank at Barnoldswick but he jilted her. She later became Amos’s secretary and eventually married him. In LTP transcript 81/VH/01, Page 6. Victor Hedges, former senior partner at Proctor and Proctor of Burnley said that Amos Nelson’s father [James Nelson] started by renting some looms in the mill where he worked and went into business on his own account.

So it looks as though I was wrong, it was Roundell who closed the pubs but this raises a further question (These things always do!) Was the Cross Keys at East Marton outside estate control? It was never closed.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 15 Mar 2019, 04:41

Image

I wonder who these two ladies were. Hard to date the pic but one would assume it was somewhere near 1900 and they would be local. What a pity nobody wrote on the back of the photos! It looks like a very pleasant way of spending an hour or two.
If I was guessing, I'd say they had some connection with the pub because taking a picture in those days wasn't a thing to be undertaken lightly and why under the pub sign?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Cathy » 15 Mar 2019, 06:31

On the sign and written in very small letters it says Teas, would that be a clue?
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 15 Mar 2019, 07:10

I can't say Cathy. It wasn't unusual for country pubs on main roads to do catering as well. They were still doing it in the 1960s, East Marton green was full of picnickers at weekend if it was fine.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 16 Mar 2019, 04:27

Image

The double bridge at East Marton that carries the road over the canal.

When first built as a single bridge the hill outside the Cross Keys pub was very steep. In later years the road was elevated on an embankment to lengthen the run in to the climb making it less steep. That meant they had to build another bridge on top of the old one to get the level. Totally invisible from the road of course and travellers never see it.
Another forgotten corner at East Marton is that there used to be a convent at the top of the hill supported by the Tempests of Broughton Hall. I remember in the 60s the gardener was a young woman and I used to see her often cycling to work. I think the convent was dissolved in the late 1970s and converted to a housing complex. David Peacock lived there after he retired from running the Dairy.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 17 Mar 2019, 04:25

East Marton has more forgotten corners. All you can see of the hamlet from the road is an out barn and the pub. There is a lovely old church, St Peters dating from about 1150 down the lane to the south starting just below the summit of the hill.

Image

There was a Saxon Hall down there as well. On the opposite side of the road at the top of the hill on the bend an overgrown lane branches off to the north. This lane leads to Ingthorpe Grange and then on to the West Marton to Gargrave road at the top of the hill above Stainton Hall.

Image

This fine building was at one time a grange (Detached Farm) belonging to Bolton Priory.

There is more........
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 18 Mar 2019, 04:38

There is even more to East Marton......

Image

Here's the 1892 25" OS of East Marton. It clearly shows the lane to Ingthorpe Grange but look as well at the lane down the side of the pub heading North. This is another forgotten lane that brings you out at Bank Newton on the Gargrave Road. Not marked on this map, but about half a mile down that lane is Kell Well, the spring that provided the private water supply for the estate at West Marton and the surrounding area. More about that tomorrow.
What I'd like you to look at is what looks on the map like a very narrow field striking off in the direction of Mire House at West Marton. The name marked on the map is a clue, 'Harrowgate Lane'. This is possibly the oldest lane on the map, it's what remains of a drove road from the west heading towards Harrogate via Skipton, hence the name. It diverts from what is now the main road down Ingthorpe Lane but then strikes west. It was quite possibly also the original road from Gisburn to Skipton as well and could possibly have been by-passed when the present day road was turnpiked. I'd have to look the date of that up but possibly in the late 16th or early 17th century. The forerunner of the double bridge would be built in the late 17th century when the canal was driven through and it carried this road.
East Marton is nothing more than a sleepy hamlet today but let your mind wander back and imagine great herds of animals coming down from the North and passing through the valley bottom. Old maps can be so rewarding!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 19 Mar 2019, 05:23

Image

The 1907 revision of the OS. I am looking for Kell well but I can't find any mention of it.
Kell Well was a very good spring that was the source of water for the private water supply installed by the Gledstone Estate. Somewhere roughly in the middle of this map is where it was situated. There was the spring in a rocky grotto and a house containing two engines and crude water purifying plant. I know all this because Harrisons used to deliver hydrated lime from Threshfield there and it was used in the settling tanks to reduce the hardness of the water. I could never understand that.

Image

Here's one of the two oil engines which powered the pumps at that time. It is preserved now in a museum. The pumps forced the water up to a small reservoir on top of White Croft Hill to the NW of the Cross Keys pub and from there it supplied the estate by gravity. I can remember in about 1960 the farm man at the farm next to the pub was fencing and drove a crowbar into the post hole to clear the 'stone' he had hit. It was the water main from the well and he got a bit of a surprise when water shot up into the air in a powerful fountain! The estate had to get Craven Water in to repair the main for them.
The water supply was later taken over by Craven Water and I thing that the Martons were put on the mains at that point. I doubt if the spring is used now.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 20 Mar 2019, 04:26

A forgotten memory triggered by mention of the estate water supply.
We used a lot of water at the dairy and had two large storage tanks which filled overnight to even out our demand on the supply. During the conversion of the dairy from bottling to cheese factory I was working in the garage with Wallace Neave and one day was called by the contractors to take the gas axe down the yard and cut out a section of redundant 6" CI water pipe. There were two such pipes in the hole, a new one and a much older pipe. Jack Brown our plumber was there as advisor and he said the redundant pipe was the older one so I started cutting as directed. I soon got through the wall and was rewarded by a jet of water ten feet high which soaked me and everyone standing around. Through the confusion I could hear Jack shouting, "Now I remember! It was the other one!".
We had to get Craven Water in as they were the only immediate source of a sleeve to clamp on the pipe to stop the leak. Funny thing was that I got the blame and not Jack! That's life for you......
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 20 Mar 2019, 07:08

We had an interesting talk at the History Society last night about the Raikeswood Road ww1 prisoner of war camp in Skipton, which was a bit of a Forgotten Corner until a copy of a book written by ex POWs turned up recently in a box in Skipton Library . The book was a collection of diaries, memoirs and drawings written by at least 60 of the German officers and smuggled out sewn into clothing when they were finally allowed home in 1918. The book was sent to Leeds University for translation and it was the woman leading the team doing that work who spoke to us last night. She has become totally gripped by the story of the camp and the men who were there and is now trying to research their lives once they were repatriated.
There is a new website here.

https://skiptonww1camp.co.uk/

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