SHED MATTERS 2

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 04 Jun 2018, 05:26

Sorry lads for the hiatus. Yesterday it was cooking and housework, today it's a visit to the Doc to find out if I am going to live.....
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 05 Jun 2018, 09:29

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Next job in Mrs Harrison will be turning steel so I started by harvesting the clean non ferocious chips and putting them in the bronze scrap bin.

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Here's the problem I created for myself. I modified the original bolts securing the chuck back because there wasn't room for the 1/2" BSF nuts. I would have done a lot better if I'd done what I am doing this morning. The basic problem is that in the days when this chuck was made lathe spindles were much smaller. I've spent an arm and a leg on the socket head bots, would you believe £7 each?

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The holes in the chuck back were a bit tight and they don't want to be. I spent about 20 minutes trying to find a drill or reamer that was exactly right and in the end I came to my senses! This round file did the job.

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That's better but you can see the problem now.... There isn't enough clearance for the head which is going to be on this side.

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I needed an end mill that was about 11/16" and found this one in the cutters I forgot to sharpen when I was having the Clarkson fest. So into the T&C grinder and I sharpened it at 5 degrees with no clearance rake. Nowadays when I use Mrs Clarkson I always think about Keith Rucker saying on Youtube that sharpening cutters was out of date and nobody did it. No in this shed Keith!

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Here's the setup. I lined it up by eye and got going. The cutter cut beautifully.

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Here's the first one..... Looks OK. I did the other two.....

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Knocking off time. The bolts all fit and seat properly with enough play to enable me to adjust them if necessary. Now I need to make the threaded inserts to fit in the counter-bores on the face of the chuck.
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 06 Jun 2018, 09:42

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First thing to do was a fag packet drawing of the inserts, some careful measuring because I want them to be a good fit in the counterbores and I am toying with a drop of Loctite to seal them in. Then check the threads on the bolts, other people make mistakes as well! I found the tapping drill, a starter tap and a bottoming tap to finish even though the threads go all the way through.

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Then into the scrap ends treasure chest for a piece of stock, turn it down to 0.780" making sure I had enough length for three inserts.

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Bore it to full depth 11.5MM which is the tapping drill for 1/2" UNF, chamfer the end and tap it an inch deep using both taps then a chamfer on the back end, part it off and repeat.

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At closing time I had two done and they are a good fit. They need the ends cleaning up yet but I'll sort that when I have all three done. I started on the last one but then walked away from it, other things to do......
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 07 Jun 2018, 09:37

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First job was to finish the last bolt and actually install them. No problem about fit, the nuts are perfect, but of course they are a bit too long. I decided to Loctite the nuts into the counter-bores.....Then I fitted them but didn't over-tighten them. Next was a bit of handball, cut the ends of the bolts off.

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I hit a problem when I went to give the bolts a good nip up once the chuck was installed. Due to the pitch circle being so small I couldn't get an Allen key in so I had to cut a short piece off an old 3/8" key and use it like a socket with a spanner.

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Then I turned the ends down. This is where high speed steel beats ceramic tips hands down. Interrupted cuts don't bother HSS at all if you use your head.

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Knocking off time. Now to fit the jaws and see how much run out I have. I can tell you just from the way the body looks when it's running that I haven't made it any worse! Nice.....
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 08 Jun 2018, 09:50

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I decided not to plunge straight into checking the run out again. These jaws are far too tight in their ways. As I said before, even though this chuck is 100 years old it has seen very little use but the jaws are far tighter than they would be when the fitters let it go out of the factory. I've stripped it completely and I know it is OK internally and I have checked the action of the scroll with no jaws in and it's perfectly free so the fault is in the jaws. I think that what has happened is movement of the casting over the years making it a different shape than when the jaws were fitted.
I tried the jaws individually in their ways over the full range, they were all too tight but no. 1 was the worst, the other two are slightly better but still too tight.

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Here we are at closing time. I can hone the outside guide of the chuck, the internal one will be more difficult. I shall work on them first and then address the jaws themselves. I won't need to take much out, all I want to do is ease them. It will be fiddly and slow but I think I can get them to fit properly. I have plenty of time and I want to be satisfied when I finish.
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by plaques » 08 Jun 2018, 11:23

Have you tried a bit of lapping paste to see where the high spots are?

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 09 Jun 2018, 02:33

Yes, I've thought about that and it could happen. I am going to go cheap and cheerful first and hone the outside guides on the chuck and see what happens...... If I don't get a result I shall strip it down again so that I can slide the jaws in the guides. Then I can use marking blue and do the job properly.
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 09 Jun 2018, 09:14

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P got me thinking this morning. If there is one lesson I have learned in a long experience with rectifying faults with machinery it is that the longest way round is often the shortest in the end. You can have a flash of inspiration at times and go straight to the fault but on the whole you save time by starting from basics. I decided that this was the way to go so I took the chuck off Mrs Harrison and started to strip it down.....

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It says a lot for how closely the chuck is fitted that you need a knife edge to start to open the joint followed up by sharp screwdrivers used as wedges.

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Shortly afterwards it was taken from together as my kids used to say.

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The scroll was free but a shade rough and almost tight so I addressed that first. I polished all the edges internal and external with the finest abrasive paper I have and spent about twenty minutes on it. It's still a tight fit but I have eased it a touch.

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Leaving no stone unturned I ran the tap through the inserts in the face just to make sure!

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I started on the guide-ways in the body and got my new diamond files out. They were OK but then I remembered I had some Norton inserts that were originally made for loading honing bars for doing cylinders. They were just the thing!

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I moved to the jaws and the first thing I tried was a flat oilstone to clean the sides but this was not cutting the hardened steel quickly enough.

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I went back to the body and used the Norton sticks on the guides.

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I found that I had some that were a perfect fit for the guides on the jaws. By the way, all this work is being done on the Number 1 jaw, I'm not touching the others. I was making progress but gradually coming to the conclusion that it's the side fit where my trouble is. I threw caution to the winds and polished the sides with a flapper wheel in the angle grinder.

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Here's where I am at at closing time. The number 1 jaw is a perfect easy sliding fit in the guides, only three to go. However the others aren't as bad as this one was and I know now that the way to go is to hone the guides in the body and jaw with the Norton sticks and then polish the sides with the flapper wheel. With a bit of luck that will do the trick. This is definitely progress!
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 09 Jun 2018, 09:39

By the way..... Those Norton sticks have been sat in a box on the shelf for over 30 years and I have never used them for anything. This morning was what they have been waiting for all those years. Never pass up the chance for picking up something like that, whatever it is it will come into its own eventually!
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 10 Jun 2018, 08:07

I really really wanted to get in the shed to see if I have it right but as usual housework, washing, cooking and numerous other small outstanding tasks have kept me out. Not a lot of point going in this late so I shall be AWOL today! Before you start tutting.... who cleans your house and does the cooking? I rest my case!
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 11 Jun 2018, 09:37

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It's been a good morning.... It took two hours to get here with all three jaws a snug but easy sliding fit in the guides in the body. I thought the two I had to do this morning would be easier and quicker because they were not as tight as number one. I was wrong, It took just as long because I had to go through exactly the same stages, trying to identify where the tight spots were and reducing them carefully a few microns at a time with my Norton abrasive sticks and the flapper wheel on the angle grinder. Take a little bit off and see if you have an improvement. I had to ease all the surfaces, it was almost as though the chuck body and the jaws have swollen over the years, no doubt that all the surfaces have moved a bit probably due to stresses coming out. This applied to the jaws as well. I think that the explanation is that they were closely fitted in the first place at the factory and normally wear with use will prevent any distortion causing tightness. The fact that the chuck has never been used enough to do this shows how close to brand new it is even though it's about 100 years old. I didn't take the last one down to being perfectly free because it was warm from the flapper wheel and the fit is so close that I reckoned it would ease as it cooled down. I was right, it did.

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Next I built the body up again. I smeared a bit of Copaslip on the bearing faces of the scroll wheel. If you remember I had polished these surfaces. Copaslip is really a high temperature lubricant but the small amount of copper on the surfaces will work just as well at low temperatures. Then plenty of way oil and a build up. I tried the scroll wheel in the body first and it fits nicely, no play but you could rotate it with your fingers. All the screws and bolts fitted but not dead tight, that can come later. I put the chuck on the nose of the lathe and installed the jaws and they are a snug but easy fit. The chuck key can be turned easily.

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Then I gave the chuck a spin dry on my highest speed for about five minutes to let it throw out most of the excess oil. I haven't got it all out but it's a lot better than it would have been.
It was knocking off time, tomorrow I shall have a good clean up, far too much grinding dust and abrasive filled oil about! Then we'll have a look at the run out........
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 12 Jun 2018, 07:44

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I was in the shed early at 06:30 and was itching to see if all the work has improved the accuracy of the big 3 jaw but the shed is filthy! Apart from Mrs Harrison, everything on the bench has a fine coat of abrasive dust. Ideally of course any form of grinding should be in a different place that where you do your fitting but when your shed is as cramped as mine you can't avoid it. So the first job was to clean the bench and all the small tools that live there.

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All the tools cleaned and the grinding dust chased off the bench, the big surface plate oiled up, a clean tablecloth installed and everything brought into some sort of order.

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Then clean Mrs Harrison, have a general chip chase of both mills and their surroundings and then finish of by vacuuming the carpet! Things are looking a lot better. At last I could put the test bar in and see where I was. I'd left the main bolts only just snug and so I was able to bump the chuck body with my lead bumper and improve the initial fit. I got it to just a thou of run out 2.5" outboard of the chuck. That's as good as it would have been when it came out of the factory, always remember that no self-centring chuck is accurate! The bottom line is that I haven't been wasting my time!

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I snugged the body bolts using the 3/8" slug I cut the other day, took the chuck off and gave the bolts a final tightening on the bench. Then I finished off by nipping all the peripheral screws that hold the two halves of the body together and which of course have been slightly slackened by the tightening of the main bolts. Then into the cupboard under the lathe. It's full now but you can never have too many chucks!

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Last thing was to install the most accurate chuck I have, the 4 jaw independent which I transferred from Johnny's big lathe to Mrs Harrison. I use 3 jaw chucks to ease some jobs but when you need absolute accuracy there's only one way to go! So I'm out of the shed half an hour early but that doesn't bother me, I've done a good job this morning.
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 13 Jun 2018, 05:33

A clean shed and a straight edge. Can you guess what comes next? That's right, a bit of writing as I have two good topics fizzing inside my head. At the same time I will be considering where to go next.
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 14 Jun 2018, 08:26

I'm still writing articles! However I did one little job, I ditched the electric bell on the back door so China will be pleased to hear that the crooked bell push is history!
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by chinatyke » 14 Jun 2018, 12:10

Stanley wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 08:26
I'm still writing articles! However I did one little job, I ditched the electric bell on the back door so China will be pleased to hear that the crooked bell push is history!
Wouldn't it have been easier to straighten it?

I thought about it yesterday as I was installing my brand new wireless doorbell which arrived from somewhere near Shanghai. One bell push and two remote ringer units, all for £7 delivered to the door. Brilliant.

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 15 Jun 2018, 02:46

No, it was on one of those tailored super sticky pads and was getting near its sell by date anyway. I want people to use the door knocker!
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 16 Jun 2018, 09:29

A bit of a cop out this morning, I only had about half an hour in the shed because of housework and cooking and as you know I am boracic at the moment so the first requirement is that whatever I decide to do it mustn't involve spending money! This limits the choices and whilst I could think of several maintenance activities I could do at no cost I decided to scratch an itch that I have had for a long time. Here's three pics that will give you a clue.....

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Some of you may recognise the traction engine cylinder that my mate Newton Pickles started on in the 1930s when he was a young lad and when he showed it to Johnny, his dad, he got a shock because he pointed out all the mistakes he had made. These included too many studs and some in the wrong place. This disheartened him so much he chucked it under the bench and never did anything with it. Eventually I was there when he decided to scrap it and I grabbed it.
As you can see from the 6" ruler it's a fair lump and is more complicated than a normal steam engine cylinder. Notice that it has two steam chests, the one at the side is a normal slide valve but the other on top carries the safety valve for the boiler and includes the steam regulator, that's the small rod at the front with the clevis on. Also in the other view you can see that it's made to mount directly onto the boiler and the steam enters the casting through the holes in the recess in the bottom. I'm not sure why there are two, I'll find that out as I go forward. Then there is the piece of solid drawn copper pipe, roughly 11SWG which is an exact fit in the curve of the mounting and I think must have been intended to be his boiler.
So, quite a lot to think about! At the moment all that is clear is that I am not going to venture into boiler making at my age! I'm not quite sure what I shall do. My first feeling is that I'd like to make a 'normal' steam cylinder out of it but there are certain hurdles I will have to jump if I do that. It's an interesting problem and I have plenty to think about. I have no doubt the Design Committee has already started on the project and who knows I might wake up tomorrow morning with some sort of an idea. I have an idea that the first job will be a strip down so I know exactly what the route of the steam passages is and also just what's inside that top steam chest.... I have an idea of course but it will be as well to be perfectly sure.
So, the least thing that has come out of the morning is plenty of brain fodder.......
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by plaques » 16 Jun 2018, 10:16

Stanley wrote:
16 Jun 2018, 09:29
whatever I decide to do it mustn't involve spending money!
Why not? £100 will only buy you one extra day in a nursing home. Gerrit spent.

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 17 Jun 2018, 03:46

I haven't got it to spend P......
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 17 Jun 2018, 09:34

One addition to that P. Have you seen the price of casting kits these days? The last set for the Steam Hammer cost about £360......

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Let's pull Newton's cylinder to bits and see what we can learn......

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First I lifted the lid off the regulator box. No real surprises, a slide valve regulator.

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When I took the valve out I had a good view of the seat, it's not finished by grinding in yet. I'm beginning to see why there are two steam passages, I suspect one of them was a failure and so Newt had to have a second stab at it. It will no doubt become clearer.

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Next I lifted the lid off the valve chest. Bit of a surprise because there isn't a valve but from the mark on the seat I suspect there has been one at some time. Perhaps Newton robbed it for another engine....

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Off with the valve chest. At first I thought Newton had drilled into the exhaust port but on inspection he hadn't. But he had drilled the lid and so he fitted a dummy stud.

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Then off with the back lid and draw the piston and rod out. Notice the drilling in the casting at twenty five past.....

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The piston hasn't got any packings in. It's a shade under 1.5" diameter and the cylinder is 3" overall. I was surprised at first, I expected a bigger bore given the size of the casting but then I realised that the reason is that he needed enough thickness in the wall for the steam passage from the base of the casting up to the regulator box.

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Here's a little secret. Notice the slotted countersunk head on the base of the stud. Newton had forgotten about the steam port so this was his way of allowing a dummy stud to cover up the mistake. Good trick actually!

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Here's the back end of the cylinder. I had a proper look at the threaded bore that's been puzzling me. It's direct into the exhaust port but there is already another exit out of the side of the casting. All I can think is that he cut one and decided it wasn't in the right place so he made another and was going to plug one. Could be something to do with routeing the exhaust into the smoke stack via a blast pipe to give it draught. Once again it will get clearer.

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Plenty to think about and I haven't forgotten the object of the exercise. The square is there to indicate a possible cut line to give a flat base for the cylinder. This is not definitive but it's the way my mind is working.....
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by chinatyke » 17 Jun 2018, 14:07

Stanley wrote:
16 Jun 2018, 09:29
...and as you know I am boracic at the moment so the first requirement is that whatever I decide to do it mustn't involve spending money! ...
boracic - where does that come from?

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Tripps » 17 Jun 2018, 14:33

Rhyming slang - boracic lint = skint. :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by chinatyke » 17 Jun 2018, 15:29

Tripps wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 14:33
Rhyming slang - boracic lint = skint. :smile:
Thanks. :good: I was thinking boracic acid and trying to make something fit!

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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 18 Jun 2018, 10:45

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By this morning I had made my mind up. Instead of over-thinking it I am just going to what Newton would have done. Crash on and make a difference! I've set the cylinder up on two parallels so that I am registering off the face that Newton machined. I have to start somewhere so I will trust the old lad. I put some white layout fluid on the brass castings and marked both the cylinder and the piston rod guides where I have to cut them.

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My marked lines didn't agree with the curved part of the casting so I checked them with the square and found that Newton's curved faces weren't quite in the same plane. That explains the discrepancy.

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When I was checking my marks I noticed something. If you look at the steam port on the cylinder face you'll see that Newton had made the beginners mistake (he was only 13 remember) of getting his stud holes on the lid wrong and one of them was hitting the steam port. He must have realised this and didn't drill into it. This is the reason for the dummy stud with the slotted countersunk head.

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The two parallels I had used in the measuring weren't substantial enough for a serious setup so I took some studs out and used two heavier parallels.

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Here's how I held it down, a piece of lead in the bore to protect it and a bar through the bore to clamp it down to the bed.

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I needed to make sure the cut was square so tightened down and used a pointer to check my line, I bumped the casting until I had it square.

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I milled the casting down as far as I could with this cutter. Notice how well the vertical face agrees with what I had marked. This confirms that Newton had got his faces square.

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Swap over to a longer mill, this is one I sharpened when I was doing my spiral milling. Off we go side milling in the same plane, as you can perhaps see from first contact at the bottom I was still agreeing with Newton!

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The cutter started talking to me, well, screaming actually, and I ignored it. So it jagged in at the end and buggered my alignment. Time for a rethink.

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I had to take all the studs out of the regulator box face and re-mounted the cylinder. Then mill it with the short cutter. This is how I should have done it in the first place, we live and learn. I had to go a bit deeper than my mark to get rid of the scar where I had jagged in but that's no matter, the depth of the cut was arbitrary all that matters is that I mill the piston guide casting to match. I shall take one last fine cut off in the morning, The finish at the moment isn't the best because I was confident enough to take deep cuts. The metal is lovely and Newton got his faces registered square with each other. Leave aside my over confidence and it's been a good morning.
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Re: SHED MATTERS 2

Post by Stanley » 19 Jun 2018, 09:23

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I wanted to take one last fine cut of the face so I dressed the wheel and touched the cutter up on the T&C grinder.

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Here's the final result. I broke all the edges and took the cylinder off the mill. Then an orgy of putting stuff away, having a good chip chase and just for good measure I oiled the ways on the mill. High end mills have an oil pump delivering lubricant constantly but no such luxuries here! Remember that this mill is El Cheapo and needs all the help it can get. Then I reinstalled the vise and trammed it in using John Mills' ball bearing tool. Next I broke down the guide plate from the guides and addressed fixing it firmly and accurately in the vice ready for the next cut. It's an awkward little bugger with no flat surfaces in the right place.

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Here's what I finished up with, more packing than you can poke a stick at. Lots of fiddling but I got it fixed in the end.

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I started cutting but could see that the cuts were so light that it was going to a long job and in addition, white knuckle all the way. I didn't rate my chances of success at all highly. Time for a drink of tea, a smoke and a bit of rethinking.

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Here's what I came up with. What could possibly go wrong?

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As it turned out, nothing! I took one cut at full depth and went carefully, the saw whistled through it, I have no doubt I could have done it faster. The time I spent sharpening all these HM cutters wasn't wasted especially as this saw is very much worn, hardly any tooth depth left but it cut nicely and left a good finish.

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I had cut directly on the marked line but if you remember I took a bit more off the cylinder to get rid of the scar where I jagged in so I took a couple of light passes with the end mill and broke the edges with a smooth file. I think it will be pretty close but can always measure and adjust later, any discrepancy will be minimal.
A good and successful morning, lots could have gone wrong!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

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