Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Stanley » 14 Jan 2020, 02:46

Ian, the detail and scope amaze me. They liked their Williams didn't they!
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by rogerharrison1 » 15 Jan 2020, 18:22

The issue you raise is one which caused a lot of discussion with the researcher (Josie Walsh at cravenindexes@gmail.com and formerly records in Keighley). Josie helped me a lot. The problem was that there were two Jeremiah Harrisons and she felt that the one born in late 1740 (but baptised 9th January 1741 in Elslack, Broughton) was the more likely ancestor than the one born in 1741. Jeremiah died in 1830 "aged 90".

Josie felt that William Harrison of Elslack (born around 1715) was probably my Jeremiah's father but it could possibly have been his brother Francis Harrison's son. Both William and Francis had sons called Jeremiah. The logic was that Jeremiah (son of Francis baptised towards the end of 1941 and hence probably born in 1741) would have been 89 when he died rather than 90 for William's son Jeremiah born end 1740 but baptised in January 1741. Josie said that the records stated that my ancestor died aged 90, hence William must have been his father.

Any research that proves or disproves that logic and link would be much appreciated.

FYI my tree is as follows after Jeremiah:
1. Jeremiah b 1740 m.Mary Clark of Elslack. 9 children
2. Francis m Martha Swire of Broughton 1795. Born 1768
3. Jeremiah 1796 Earby. Died Skipton Workhouse 1857. Married Elizabeth Cowgill from Earby 1822
4. John (known as Jonny) born 1829 Earby. Moved to Oakworth and later lived at Clough Bank Farm. Married Sarah Smith (died childless - daughter of the owner farmer) then married Mary Ellis (nee Clarkson of Silsden)
5. Thomas (Tom) born 1872 died 1948 m. Mary Ann Shackleton of Laycock (distant relation to Sir Ernest Shackleton). Tom started Tom Harrison & Son in Oldham and also Harrison & Clough (Nut & Bolt Makers) in Keighley (still exists but bought by GKN). Lived at Holme House Fell Lane (near Stells Mill). His 6 children included John Stancliffe Harrison. Mary Ann Shackleton's mother was a Stancliffe (from Halton East/Bolton Abbey area)
6. John married Elisabeth Lund of Keighley and they had three children, of which I am the eldest (Roger Stancliffe Harrison b 1947 Bingley)
7. I married Lucienne Odette Coutanceau from Paris in 1973 and we live in Duffield Derbyshire and in Gaujac, Gers.

Best Regards
Roger Stancliffe Harrison
Last edited by rogerharrison1 on 16 Jan 2020, 21:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by PanBiker » 15 Jan 2020, 18:32

Quite a few anomalies there Roger on your dates.

Yu can edit your post using the first "pen icon" at the head of the post.

Welcome to the site by the way.
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 15 Jan 2020, 20:50

G'day Roger,

welcome to the debate. and thanks for your comments,

Yes! the question remains as to which Jeremiah to go with? There are sensible and probable reasons to go with the Francis/Jeremiah direction given that there are repeats of family names such as Francis downstream of Francis Snr and Jeremiah 1741 etc, and I have to admit it looks easier....

BUT!
1/ Harry Speights Tree is very compelling to me
2/ The fact that historically, Genealogical choices have been made without the benefit of the Jeremiah to William details contained within the BT's
3/ The day/date/year calculations from a few days ago show the 1740 solution to be the correct mathematical choice. (with the details we have)
4/ Importantly, a 'Sneaky Suspicion" that William Snr and Jeremiah 1740 are the targets, I keep returning to the problem, "never underestimate a sneaky suspicion" LOL!

Obviously, I am leaning to William and Jeremiah 1740 as the main contenders.. But I'm not hearing from the hundreds of Francis/Jeremiah 1741 followers

Could I please ask The Opposition Crew, the Francis/Jeremiah 1741 supporters to state your/their case please. I'm happy to be proven wrong or worse (I'm apparently often wrong-Wife Comment )... LOL!

Thanks

Ian in OZ

Where is Alan Turing and the Bletchley Park crew when you need them?
Last edited by HarroOz on 17 Jan 2020, 05:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Stanley » 16 Jan 2020, 04:38

Out there thinking, they will post when they have a direct question or something to add.
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by plaques » 16 Jan 2020, 09:44

Feeling out of my depth here. Have you tried 'Family Search' the Mormon Jehovah's Witness web site. Sometimes they have these odd church records listed down which are often mis-spelt but can come in handy.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 17 Jan 2020, 01:19

Plaques,

The business of "being out of ones depth" is a feeling I have every single day, there is a lot more kicking required when you're in too deep and that's where I could be with all this Jeremiah business (drowning).. LOL!

Yep! I was mucking around at that exact same place yesterday. I was trying to locate the Earby records without too much success.. I realised that whoever had indexed the Earby records had called them Elsby (or similar)? obviously not from the UK..

This puzzle we have doesn't appear to be solvable with on-line or contemporary resources. If we could find some documents that take us back into the 1700's that could distinguish between the two Jerry's we'd have the problem solved. At this point we just keep trying to find the missing links and hopefully an old Family Tree "like harry Speight's" from the Harrison's in the Craven area. Although given that we haven't heard from any Harrison locals at this point, it seems that the families must have been cast to the far reaches of the UK and beyond.

Also, the distinct possibility is that they "the Harrison's" don't get onto Forums, Genealogy sites or muck around with Family History pursuits?

We continue to peruse all avenues of inquiry and this wonderful Forum is a very important element of that pursuit.

"I'm Guessing that both Jeremiah's are looking down on us right now and having a good old laugh"

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 17 Jan 2020, 02:11

G'day again!

One of my Harrison Rellies from the UK but not local has asked a question via PM that I think should be discussed here because its quite relevant to the discussion:

His question:

Q1:/ "You have William Harrison m to Martha Nutter BY LICENCE in 1732-3
What does BY LICENCE mean? Could it be a minor being married by licence??
"
A:/ Firstly the License business. In earlier times a marriage license was required if a partner was from another Parish, separate from the Parish that the marriage was being conducted. So, Martha Nutter was from Thornton in Craven, she would need to have a letter of approval to Marry William at Broughton All Saints Church. I'm not sure if this was correspondence between the Parish Vicar's or a letter from her parents giving approval or both?. And that begs the obvious question? would such a document exist anywhere in the Archives? For us it could be a very important document!!

Q2:/ Could William have been born in 1718 at Thorlby near Skipton and then moved
to Elslack? There is a record for a William at that time but can't find any others

A:/ Off course the William B-1718 of Thorlby looks pretty good for a contender as Jeremiah B-1740's father. The general rule of 20 years between birth and Marriage and parenting within a year or two of that is the standard deviation or common separation. I have kept the choice of Contenders with the Broughton records as we have plenty of Contenders without going to other townships in this period. BUT, the Broughton Parish records don't show a suitable William born in the period that we conclude is suitable for selection.

Enter the Broughton Bishops Transcripts, the ones (unlike the PR's) that didn't have the pages ripped out and or fire damaged in the Broughton Church (unofficial) Bon-fire!!!!!. In these records we have the following: (Thank you again, Chris and Bob)

1703-4
William son of William Harrison Bapt March 7th
William son of William Harrison Buried March 9th
1705
William son of William Harrison Bapt June 3rd

My choice when I get to producing a Family Tree will be William Harrison 1705 born in Broughton to William Snr, again of Broughton. Off course, this is 27 years between his Marriage to Martha Nutter in 1732-3 and another 8 years until he has Jeremiah 1740. But Francis I believe was born in 1702 and took 38 years to have Jeremiah 1741 so the same sort of elapsed times for both of them.

Hope my math is correct, Flame away!!

HarroOZ
Last edited by HarroOz on 17 Jan 2020, 02:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 17 Jan 2020, 02:44

Hi Again,

Another PM question that is relevant to this family, and its identification - albeit on the edges.

This time it's about Dupuytren's Disease, an issue that arose in a previous post by me regarding one of the distinguishing features of a Harrison (in my family) that might show a relationship. Naturally, in these times we can easily take a DNA test and that usually will show kinship.. unless "Mischief In The moonlight" has taken place......LOL!! "A topical subject ATM, one of our Harrison family, via a Y-37 DNA test has just taken on a new family direction"

Dupuytren's Disease won't kill you, it will interfere with a hand shake or putting on your gloves, or using the hand brakes on your push bike. It's a bugger of a thing. As many Scottish Bag Pipe Players will attest, its the end of playing and as for playing the Guitar or Violin your buggered there as well.

If you watch any Bill Nighy Movies you will see his both hands clenched ALL of the time. he won't have an operation, and says he's proud of his Viking Heritage. We do believe it was spread by the Scandinavian's but came from northern Europe. Its usually not painful, only during flareups. I have 10 functioning fingers now after an operation but the disease continues, One of the Harrison visitors to this Forum thread has it and My Great Uncle William (another one) had it and had the finger removed in the late 1800's and replaced by a prosthetic finger made of sterling Silver and Ivory.

Not everybody has contraction, I triggered the contracture due to a hand trauma when my "Little British Sports car" Healey, rotated unexpectedly on a restoration rotisserie and jammed my hand causing a terrible injury. Dupuytren's sees the injury and sends heaps of Type 3 collagen to the injury site to fix it up, unfortunately, Dupuytren's doesn't know when to stop sending the collagen.

Here endeth the Dupuytren's lecture. (sorry to take us off track) but I was asked..! :geek:

HarroOZ
Last edited by HarroOz on 17 Jan 2020, 19:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Wendyf » 17 Jan 2020, 07:01

I have the Thornton in Craven records in a spreadsheet if there is anything I can look up for you do let me know.

Dupuytren's runs in my family, my brother had the op a couple of years ago as it was interfering with his cycling! My palm is looking very weird but it hasn't affected my fingers yet. I did the Ancestry DNA test just over a year ago and was extremely disappointed to find that we had no Scandinavian connection and are practically 90% North British, they have revised their database this year and a teeny percentage of Norwegian has appeared! Pinch of salt comes to mind. :smile:

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Stanley » 17 Jan 2020, 07:19

I have always had a tiny trace of it as well. A small 'tuck' in the skin on the palm of my hand which seems to be an attachment to the tendon but it has never bothered me.
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 17 Jan 2020, 21:10

Thanks Wendy and Stan for the hand......."Dupruytren's Contracture" is good if you need to clear something from the corner of your eye, not so good if you run your hand through your hair.. :extrawink:

Wendy, thanks for the TInC Spreadsheet offer, I have the XLS file from EFHS.. and very useful, a lot of hard work by somebody?

According to the records I hold there are a many Harrison's buried within the Broughton All Saints Church Yard.

1/ From the "Broughton Bishop's Transcripts" there are (c) 33 Harrison's buried between 1600 and 1813
2/ From the "Broughton Burial Register" (CRO Ref PR/BGT1/9) there are (c) 72 Harrison's buried between 1813 and 1927
3/ From the "Broughton Monumental Inscriptions" there are 21 Harrison graves with (c) 64 people buried within those graves

Therefore there should be (c) 105 Harrison's buried between 1600 and 1927 in that Churchyard
There are no Harrison graves in that Churchyard prior to the mid 1800's according to the Monumental Inscriptions
The jointly held grave of Jeremiah Harrison (D 1830) and Mary Harrison (Clark) (D 1818) is missing
I predict that there are approximately 10-15 Harrison graves missing holding (c) 40 people (Harrison's)

My question is:

Why are so many graves missing and why are they mostly missing from before (c) 1850...?

:surprised:
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Wendyf » 17 Jan 2020, 22:00

There are many graves that dont have headstones Ian, or they may have been lost long before the inscriptions were recorded in the 20th century.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 17 Jan 2020, 22:28

G'day Wendy,

Yep! I can understand that some might get lost if they were made of Timber. Headstones are of rock or concrete, heavy and difficult to move. The Harrison's were one of the largest families that inhabited this grave yard. For example, Mary Harrison died before Jeremiah, they had several children all still inhabiting Elslack and the surrounding area, the extended family in the area was around 100. they would absolutely have installed a proper Grave and Headstone for Mum and Wife. What happens to a solid block of rock? Or potentially 10 huge blocks weighing 100kg each, Who do we ask? None of the Harrison graves prior to (c) 1850 are there.? (All gone)!

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Stanley » 18 Jan 2020, 03:13

That's a puzzle.... but amazing what a variety of uses there are for a good flat piece of stone!
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Wendyf » 18 Jan 2020, 07:14

Francis Harrison married to Martha Swire was probably Earby's last corn miller, also called Frankie in some of the Thornton in Craven parish records. He is still noted as a miller in 1811 but we know that there was an attempt to convert the mill to spinning cotton around the turn of the century. William Harrison, who we believe could have been the brother of Francis, went into partnership with local entrepreneur Joseph Cowgill but the project ended in disaster with the partnership being dissolved in 1806 and the mill burning down in 1812. It was rebuilt but probably never used again... all traces now long gone.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Wendyf » 18 Jan 2020, 07:16

Parts of Thornton in Craven churchyard were built up layer on layer!

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Stanley » 18 Jan 2020, 08:00

I always remember Andy telling us that many grandfather clock faces were engraved on reversed brass plates off coffins that had been 'recycled' by the sextons who had found them when digging new graves.....
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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 18 Jan 2020, 20:25

Well, thanks Wendy,

really interesting for all us Harro's here to read about Frankie, Will and Joseph Cowgill working together and converting the old Corn Mill into a Cotton Mill and the eventual collapse of the business and the subsequent fire... Really interesting news.

As for the Broughton All Saints and the "Final Resting Places" or actually the missing places...... Crikey! Wow! Bloody Hell.....

I'd like to think we are breaking new ground here with this subject but it seems that old ground is what we have.. Are there any Grandfather Clock manufacturer records available?

We had better leave this issue I think, I actually located more records last night which confirmed more losses.

The church is very, very old and not much land so I guess one thing leads to another!!

Very Sad :sad:

Ian

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Christian » 18 Jan 2020, 23:12

There is an entry on the Carleton tithe map for a Jeremiah Harrison owning a field. Might not mean much but its something.

I'll drag the details out when I'm home and not on the dinky laptop.

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 19 Jan 2020, 03:24

G'day Christian,

Regarding your find of a "Carleton Tithe map" with Jeremiah listed as owning a field. I would love to see this image or file please. Wendy has referenced these documents previously, I had a poke around, got lost, got confused, got unhappy and lost the plot...I gave myself a reminder on a piece of paper on the desk and lost the piece of paper. I was intending to return to Tithe's when I was in a better frame of mind...never happened!

I'd be really happy to see this document.. I'm still uncertain as to whether it's the owner of the land or the occupier of the land who is paying this tax?

Many thanks

Ian

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Wendyf » 19 Jan 2020, 06:59

Different documents Ian, concentrate!! :laugh5:

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Wendyf » 19 Jan 2020, 10:57

Two examples from the Broughton with Elslack Land Tax records from Ancestry, 1786 and 1796.


Image

Image

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by HarroOz » 19 Jan 2020, 22:51

Hi Wendy, et al,

Ahh! Looks like I took my eye off the ball..! LOL

Tithe Map and Tithe register. I get the distinction now and will undertake some further dabbling on Ancestry.

When I return home i"ll blow the images up and take a better look. They do look great in a 2" screen so I'm assuming a huge improvement.

I'm currently with my son in Hospital who head planted while undertaking a standing back flip so normal "Programming and Transmission" will be interrupted (but not stopped)

Ian

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Re: Craven Harrison’s – Jeremiah 1740 vs Jeremiah 1741

Post by Stanley » 20 Jan 2020, 02:51

Ian, tell your son that an old bloke you know says there are better ways of passing the time than trying to break his neck!
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