The Barlick War Memorial Group

[Thomo]

Wow, this is like learning to drive again, but now back to business. Can we go ahead with our inaugural meeting plans for Sunday the 5th of February at 1400 hrs in the Merlin Suite at Rolls Royce Welfare Club?

[PanBiker]

Ok by me Peter for the meeting date.

Can I suggest that we keep this thread in the main for BWMG general discussion.

I will start another topic in the history section for War Memorial Research and transfer all my previous posts on the WWII research done so far to start it off and to keep some continuity.

Ian.

[Thomo]

Thats fine Ian, I have mailed Chris Foster. Two things are missing and here you may be able to help. I have lost contact details for Vera at Earby and the Woman who got in touch with Doc last week saying she had read about us in the press. All else I had backed up and is therefore intact,

[Chris CPGW]

Hi Peter,

I've sent you an email confirming the 5th Feb meet up. I'm bringing John Richardson the CPGW main researcher with me if thats ok ?

I look forward to meeting the group and putting names to faces, or faces to names, which ever way it is

Best Wishes

Chris

[PanBiker]

I will have Vera's details as she emailed me or I have her details in an email from Bob at EHS. I will PM or email you with the details Peter.
The posting that Doc made last week will currently be unavailable in the archive as the current snapshot backup of the archive site is back at the 5th Jan. Doc says he may be able to recover a more recent backup of the site data but it may take him a while to get to it which is understandable with his workload with the new site at the moment.

I have started a new thread (Barlick War Memorial Research) to hold research notes for the project. I would like to pull my WWII research done to date into there so that we have some continuity as I am researching the papers in chronological order. It would be nice if I could keep it that way.

If Doc can recover from a later index point it will be a bonus, no doubt a few days will tell. He is aware of the issue anyway.

Good news that you and Richard will be able to attend the meeting Chris, like you say it will be good to put a face or two to some names.

[Thomo]

Good Morning Each. I have tried to contact Vera Cocker, but not succeeded as yet, I will keep trying. I have also mailed Daryl Ames at the CH. If anyone else feels that they would like to attend please post here.

[Thomo]

I have contacted Vera Cocker and invited her to the meeting, which she hopes to attend, I also now have her e/mail address.

[PanBiker]

Excellent news Peter, it looks like we may well have a good bit of experience around the table.

[klondyke49]

Good Morning everyone,

I appologise for using this topic to raise a related issue and will create a new thread if required to do so.

At last nights meeting of the Town Council the plan to refurbish the Memorial Gardens was dicussed, including the possibility of combining the cenotaph into the refurbishment plan when the memorial was updated with the missing names.

Since the press were present at that meeting I took the oportunity to highlight the work of the BWMG and its research. I did stress that the missing name research was independant private research, and that the BWMG were not in anyway involved in my suggestion to combine the memorials. It was my idea alone that an opportunity to combine the two memorials should be examined during the determination phase of the plan for refurbishment of the memorial gardens.

Recognising that moving the war memorial, yet again, was a sensitive subject, the Council agreed to consult the townsfolk of Barnoldswick and also recognised that, with the press present at the meeting, that dialogue had effectively begun.

Without the Logia building that was first erected in the memorial gardens, the site lacks a proper focal point. Indeed since the memorial gardens were replaced by the town square as the venue for the rememberance and rededication service the site meant to commemorate the fallen of WWII is omitted from all recognition on November 11th and / or Remembrance Sunday.

On the other hand the cenotaph is located in a site that has no striking vista, overshadowed by the trees cramped and in need of extensive work itself. The attendees to the cenotaph service are denied unrestricted views and very little safe space to partake in or observe the service without standing in the roadways.

It is my view that making the Cenotaph the focal point of a refurbished memorial garden has added benefits rather than considering the two schemes independantly. Dismantling and Moving the Cenotaph could be done at the same time the new names are added, thus making it simpler for the new names to be incorporated into the memorial.

What is the view of the Group?

regards
Ken Hartley
kenknhrt@hotmail.co.uk

[Thomo]

I think that it is a splendid idea, It would bring everything together. Most towns Memorials are in a prominent place, not tucked away up a side St. And I have no objections to this topic being used for what may be other items but are nevertheless related. As for BWMG business, I have printed eight full sets of the info we have for our first addition candidates, plus a cover sheet, if more are required, it can soon be done. I still have twelve more to research inbetween rebuilding the kitchen, this alone is sufficient to warrant a new topic about "Cowboy" workmen!!

[Tardis]

I understood the council had decided top ask how much it would cost first and then have a consultation about moving it.

Wonder what the piece of land the centotaph is currently standing upon has been ear marked for in the great scheme of things

[PanBiker]

First of all Ken, no problem with keeping this discussion in this thread as far as I am concerned either, seems like the best place for it.

Now to your proposition, there are a number of questions I would like answers to.

First of all, when the memorial was moved down from Letcliffe in 1983, why was it sited where it is and not at the Memorial Gardens which at the time were being used for the remembrance services?

What are the Barnoldswick Branch Royal British Legion's views on a possible re-siting of the memorial further away from the town centre?

What are the cost involved in dismantling and re-siting?

Has the plan to refurbish the Memorial Gardens in time for the Queens Jubilee celebrations been put on hold or is this still in the pipeline. How does this fit in with it's use as a memorial site to the casualties of World War Two?

What are the expected time scales for the proposed move taking into consideration that the research into missing names is nowhere near complete yet.

If such a move is deemed to be affordable in the present economic climate how do the council propose to consult the townsfolk of Barnoldswick?

Some things that should be borne in mind:

The Memorial Gardens tended to be a congregating site for teenagers and attracted it's fair share of vandalism and graffiti as a result, this was the main reason that the loggia and seating was removed. Would moving the memorial away from it's present location put it more at risk of attracting vandals?

What is actually so wrong with the present location that could not be addressed with some remodeling of the site. With regard to the "niche" location. In all the years I have attended the remembrance services at the memorial, I have heard people comment about how cold it is or how damp but never anyone complain that they don't know what's going on or can't see the proceedings. If anything the site could do with opening up a bit and ensuring that a proper functioning P.A. is provided for the event. Nothing that can't really be addressed at considerably less expense than moving site and all that that would entail. I don't think standing in the road is really an issue. This is a minor road on a Sunday afternoon and closing it for half an hour is not really a problem.

I dont think that adding additional names will necesarilly be made any easier as part of a re-siting operation. The number of additions already known for the First World War exceed the available space on the existing memorial so they will almost certainly have to be added as a separate entity to the obelisk itself. There is scope to add further names for the Second World War and later conflicts, although It would probably make sense to do these in the same manner as what is decided for other additions.

These are just my initial thoughts on the matter. I would need answers to the questions above before making my mind up.

[klondyke49]

Thanks thomo and ian for those comments,

I will work on answering Ian's comments over the next few days.

To clarify the issue of why's and wherefore's about the proposal to link bringing the names up to date and refurbishing the Memorial Gardens I stress again that was purely my idea. There is no ulterior motive, no other linked activity by either the Town, the Borough or the County authorities as far as I am aware.

The Cenotaph was "Parked" in its current location because that particular corner of land had no defined use when the cenotaph was moved for very good reasons from Letcliffe. Its siting there was supposed to form a focal point for the Town centre. As far as I can see the Town Centre focal point has now shifted to the Town Square which currently has the Jubilee Fountain and the Flag pole as focal points.

I have no strong views on moving the cenotaph to any other site or indeed leaving it where it is now. I also respect the fact that the small flower beds in its immediate vicinity have become an unofficial memorial to other Barnoldswick families. I do however feel strongly that over the years the flower beds, the shrubs, and most of all the surrounding trees have been allowed to erode the visibility and prominence of the cenotaph itself.

[Thomo]

Private James Wilson. I removed this name from the toplist after being informed that his name is on the Great Harwood Memorial. That is where he was born, but it now appears that he may have been resident with his parents in Barlick. The family grave is at Ghyll and his name is on the headstone in memorial, others are his parents and a brother. This came to light whilst looking at the pics taken at Ghyll prior to Rememberance Sunday last year. I mentioned this man to Vera Cocker last week, and she told me that just because a man is remembered elsewhere, it does not preclude him from our Memorial, I agree with this and I am adding him to the list. Also just to prove that you can not overdo reviewing a conclusion, we can add Private John Fay of Arthur St to the toplist as well, his Brother Robert is already on our Memorial. Back to dismantling the efforts of a rogue trader now in the kitchen.

[klondyke49]

Good Luck with that one thomo.

[PanBiker]

The Cenotaph was "Parked" in its current location because that particular corner of land had no defined use when the cenotaph was moved for very good reasons from Letcliffe.

Not strictly true Ken, the memorial is sited where it is by design and not simply "parked" on any bit of ground available at the time.

While I was in the library I pulled the microfiche reels for 1982 and 1983 with a view to finding out a bit more about the whys and wherefores of the current location of the memorial. This is what I found, I hasten to add that the record in the local papers concurs with what I remember being told by my dad who was secretary of the Barnoldswick Branch of the Royal British Legion for the best part of 30 years and certainly during the time of the move of the memorial from Letcliffe Park.

Reports are all from editions of the Barnoldswick and Earby Times.

I missed recording the exact date but I think it was in a September or October 1982 edition which carries a report given by Pendle Councillor Tony Greaves on the decision to allocate £8,500 of funding from the Civic Lottery coffers for the relocation of the Barnoldswick War Memorial from Letcliffe Park to the Town Centre and to landscape the vacated site at Letcliffe.

November 26th 1982 has the resultant report of the plans being submitted to Pendle. The memorial is being moved at the request of the Barnoldswick Branch of the Royal British Legion.
There is a sub note that the Royal Marines had expressed interest in tackling the operation.

There is a report and picture in the final December edition of the year that the Memorial is due to be moved from Letcliffe in 1983

In the event, the Blackburn firm of Fecit and Cookson (Monumental Masons) were contracted to do the work.

July 22nd edition carries a report from Fecit & Cookson after inspecting the groundwork of the new site. They expressed concern about the existing paved hollow base foundation as it had to support the considerable weight of the memorial which is constructed from 4 and 5 ton blocks of granite. Remedial work was instigated to provide a solid foundation of concrete and brick which unfortunately would introduced a delay in the re-location as they had to wait for the foundation to dry before they could attempt a move.

When the memorial was dismantled at Letcliffe the masons found a number of items from 1923 within the structure. There was a copy of the West Yorkshire Pioneer, a selection of coins and a copy of the B.U.D.C (Barnoldswick Urban District Council) Yearbook.

August 19th edition carries a report stating that the memorial was finally moved and resited to it's new location on Thursday 11th August 1983.The Royal British Legion were quoted as being pleased as they had fought for some considerable time to have it moved to the Town Centre.

A rededication service took place on the 18th September 1983. Rev. Long conducted the service with the Royal British Legion, Civic Dignitaries, representatives from the borough council and members of the public present. There is a photograph of this event in the Barlick History Society book "A Century of Change" on page 82.

Friday November 11th edition of the BET has a short report saying that the RBL was hoping for a good turnout for the forthcoming Remembrance Service on the following Sunday now that the memorial was finally re-sited in the town centre.

November 18th edition carries the report of the first service held at the new location. It was attended by a considerable number of people, far more than had been experienced in earlier years at the Memorial Gardens. After the service of Remembrance and Dedication, the Chairman of Barnoldswick Royal British Legion who was retiring after 25 years service, Maurice Myers, gave an impromptu speech to those gathered there for the first remembrance service at the new site.

He thanked all those present and those who had undertaken the task of the relocation of the memorial to its new site. He said that the town could take pride in the Cenotaph and the fact that it had enhanced and given dignity to that particular area. That area was popular for young people to meet and he went on to thank the considerable number present there that day for not vandalising the memorial as had been the case at the Memorial Gardens which had been a particular sore point in the town. He hoped for continued treatment of the memorial with respect.

I think Maurice’s hopes have been upheld over the last 30 years that the memorial has been in its current location.

It is also plain from the record that this site was intended and favoured over the Memorial Gardens for the future of the Cenotaph.

Consequently, I would not be in favour of relocating yet again to a site further from the centre of town.

[Thomo]

That seems to be a good case for leaving it where it, but some kind of "facelift" might not go amiss. I have made enquiries about the availability of power and water to the present site, and with a little help I am willing to undertake a serious pressure washing of that area when the weather warms up a bit, or a lot! I have the machine and will gladly do it for nowt.

[klondyke49]

Thanks for that Ian.

Parked was perhaps the wrong word to use in this instance. The current site was chosen because it was convenient and available and close to what was then the town centre.

As I said, I have no specific wish to move the memorial, but more specifically give it more visibility and prominence.

With the decision to hold the precept at its current level, which was taken by council on wednesday last, there will be very little funding available for such refurbishment projects. Extensive remodelling of any part of town whatsoever is unlikely in the present economic climate.

[PanBiker]

I thought I had read in BET recently, that the area had been power washed to remove the inevitable build up of algea on the steps and surrounding paving. It was quite slippy underfoot when wet, I noticed this shortly after the Remembrance Service. I don't think it is too bad now but will check again when passing next.

I agree that the site could do with some re-modeling or at least a bit of tidying up. If you look at the photo of the rededication, there were no trees surrounding it then or what had been planted were only saplings. 30 years growth has led to what we have now. On its present site and given the funding to do it I would like to see the full facia opened up by removing the front wall on Wellhouse Road or at least lowering it, that would make a huge difference to the site and it would not look quite as much in an enclosed space. The trees at the front could be removed which would give it a much more open aspect.

I do take your point Ken about the present economic climate, we will be searching for support from wherever we can to raise the funding for adding our researched names in some form to the area. Again, just as an aside, the £8,500 cost of moving the memorial in 1983 was more than a years wage for the average worker at that time. Based on that, if prices have risen in line with earnings another move today could easliy cost well in excess of £20,000.

The problem with any area or project such as this is that councils do not necessarily factor in the ongoing longterm maintenance costs of the sites. When the Loggia was removed from the Memorial Gardens it was effectively abandoned or at least put at the bottom of priorities over the following years which leaves it in the state it is now.

Taking into consideration that the main focus for remembrance in the town is now and has been for the last 30 years the Cenotaph (which is preferable anyway). One way forward for the Memorial Gardens would be to rededicate that area for the present Queens Jubilee as has already been mooted. Queen Victorias own Jubilee Drinking Fountain would be easier to move and would actually be more in keeping on the raised circular frontage to the collonade. That would create a nice focal point for the site, the Memorial Gardens could become the Jubillee Gardens and celebrate both those long reigning monarchs. It would also create more room in the Town Square for events and marquees and the like. I would ask the Royal British Legion for their views though.

One other thing to bear in mind, although originally dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Second World War, the Memorial Gardens have never recorded any of the names of the fallen. As we know all those known about at the time were put on the Cenotaph. In a way, when the Remembrance Services were held on that site there was no real focal point for the casualties from the First World War. I know my dad never really favored the situation there, (he was Standard Bearer for the branch for a good number of years also) and was "made up" when they eventually got the Cenotaph brought down into town.

[klondyke49]

Thank you again for that post Ian.

I am in total agreement with your suggestions and concur that my thoughts had also covered the Jubilee aspect of the refurbishment of the Memorial Gardens. I do agree that no recognition of names from WWII or subsequent conflicts was ever made in the case of the Memorial Gardens. It was for that reason I support their research and inclusion on the cenotaph.

[PanBiker]

A bit more about why we have the Memorial Gardens in the first place. This is related from what my dad told me, it all makes sense when you think about it.

Millions of young men had been put through the mincer of the Western Front, the carnage of the event was unbelievable and as we know entire communities were altered at stroke in some cases with the insane idea of the "Pals Brigades" and companies of young men raised from villages when the recruiting banner came round and they answered the call en-mass and went off to war with their mates. "A war to end all wars" and "a land fit for heroes", we can see with hindsight never really materilaised. There was an enormous sense of loss in the country and quite rightly so, thousands of communities needed something to mark the sacrifices made and so they raised War Memorials. the length and breadth of the country all paid for by public subscription.

I have not yet researched the early days of our memorial yet although I intend to do so via the council minute books and the local press reports. What I do know is that Barlick's first "Cenotaph" was a wooden replica which was erected on Fernlea Avenue during the fund raising phase. There is a photo on the the archive site, not sure if its one of Stanley's. It's probably in one of the pictorial history books of Barlick that have been published over the years as well. By 1923 the money had been raised to provide a permanent memorial which is the same structure as we see today.

Letcliffe Park at the time would have seemed a good place to put it no doubt. The park was a lot different to the "Country Park" we see now and would be the venue for lots of local attractions with the bandstand and the landscape gardens, simple attractions like the putting greens and an ideal place for a picnic in the summer. Walking up to the park (which was the only one in the town at the time), would not have been seen as an isuue or any hardship, people were used to it. The surviving veterans were still young and dad could take the kids up and they could play on the WWI tank that had been placed up there as well.

By the late 40's, after the Second World War, the veterans from the First War were not getting any younger and the annual treck up to Letcliffe for the Remembrance Service was becoming harder with each passing year. To address the problem in the 1950's, the British Legion mooted the idea of the Forces Memorial Gardens, dedicated to those who lost their life in the Second World War and which could be used as the focal point for remembrance in the town. And so it was. It was clear at that point though that in order to avoid the same issue in future years for the veterans of the Second World War the memorial would ideally need to be in town. I'm fairly sure from what my dad told me that the Memorial Gardens were only intended to be a temporay arrangement until a suitable site could be found for the Cenotaph in town.

In the 50's the railway station and goods yard were still there, we had no town square, no town green. The site for Holy Trinity had been earmarked and was awating construction. There was simply nowhere to put it, the town centre and immediate surrounding areas had no room. It's interesting that they never contemplated bringing it down to the Site of the Memorial Gardens. I wonder if they ever considered the St. James Chuch site when that was pulled down. we know what is there now but that could have been a potential although it was probably earmarked for retail to be in keeping with the rest of Church Street.

Personally, I cant see anything wrong with "decommissioning" a site when it no longer suits your pupose, we do it with the consecrated ground of churches and we do it with warships and many other examples in industry and commerce. I'm not a particular Royalist but I quite like the idea of a Jubille Gardens, as long as it is maintained and that Barnoldswick Royal British Legion are consulted.

[Tardis]

Quotes were at the West Craven Area Committee last night for the Memorial Gardens

£44,000 without the 'new' bit of moving the cenotaph into it.

No budget currently, and the Town Council has only put £10,000 aside for next year

Hopefully I have attached the relevant document

[Chris CPGW]

The Memorial Gardens project as all the criteria to be funded or part funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund http://www.hlf.org.uk/Pages/Home.aspx With the present financial limbo looking as though its here to stay for the long term, perhaps this is the most promising route to take .

[PanBiker]

Quotes were at the West Craven Area Committee last night for the Memorial Gardens

£44,000 without the 'new' bit of moving the cenotaph into it.

No budget currently, and the Town Council has only put £10,000 aside for next year

Hopefully I have attached the relevant document

In light of the costings in that document I think I may well have considerably underestimated the costs that would be involved in actually moving the monument if that ever became part of the plan. Moving 15 or so tons of granite plus the foundation and groundwork that would be required to re-site would not really bear thinking about. Reworking and tidying the existing site would look cheap in comparison.

The Memorial Gardens project as all the criteria to be funded or part funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund http://www.hlf.org.uk/Pages/Home.aspx With the present financial limbo looking as though its here to stay for the long term, perhaps this is the most promising route to take .

Thanks for this link too Chris. It will be very useful when we get further into our project. I cant see anything on the site that would preclude us from applying for funding for our addition of names either.

[Tardis]

The item I found most interesting was building in the extra 10% to the costs, for no real reason I've ever discovered a private company doing so.

I agree with you about the potential costs of moving the cenotaph, I fear it would necessitate some fairly specialist gear to be involved, road closures, and it would all have to be done safely to ensure nothing got bruised. Plus presumably it wouldn't be as simple as picking it up from one place and putting it down in the other on the same day, or in a straight line between sites.

Sounds like the simplest thing for the current cenotaph site is to do a little tree pruning.

Pendle jet washed around the cenotaph in December, that is why some of the flagging is now a little loose as the sand bed underneath has suffered some water damage and the surface is now uneven.