POLITICS CORNER

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2988
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 08 Dec 2018, 10:48

Tizer wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 09:57
As long as we stay in the EU we have the power to veto the accession of other countries.
I'm just a 'mug punter' but here's some evidence which would indicate otherwise -

No [the British government] doesn’t [have a veto]. We are not going to be able to have a say … I do not think that the EU is going to keep Turkey out. I think it is going to join.

Penny Mordaunt, armed forces minister, speaking on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show on May 22.


When we first joined in 1973 confirmed by the referendum of 1975 there were just nine members, and we did have a veto against anything we wished. On that basis, and because Tony Benn wanted to leave - I voted to remain. :smile:

They have since invented 'qualified majority voting' - to help to achieve by stealth, what was always intended from the start, a United States of Europe. Include me out. :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 9763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 08 Dec 2018, 11:51

Penny Mordaunt was wrong. Before the EU Referendum the Leave Campaign misled the British public by publishing and distributing leaflets that frightened people, warning them that Turkey could soon be allowed to be a member state of the EU. That claim was incorrect. Although `qualified majority voting' has been introduced it does not apply to major areas such as financial affairs and taxation. Each member state still has a veto on accession of countries to the EU. (Even in the case of those situations where qualified majority voting applies `The blocking minority must include at least four Council members representing more than 35% of the EU population.' LINK )

`Fact Check: would the UK have a veto on Turkey joining the EU?' LINK (Other references are available, :smile: )
`Mordaunt’s comments raise the question of whether existing EU member states are able to veto new states joining. The answer is yes. Accession of a candidate state must be approved unanimously by the Council of the EU, which is made up of representatives from each member state, and ratified by all national parliaments. This gives each member state a veto over the process. So even if Turkey were to fulfil all of the eligibility criteria (it’s not even close), and even if all other member states favoured accession (they don’t), the UK would still be able to veto.'

It wasn't just Penny Mordaunt, even the great intellect of Michael Gove was missing when back in April 2016 he wrote: `Albania is on course to join the European Union — alongside four other countries, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey. The already unwieldy group of 28 is due to become a throng of 33. And Britain isn’t just backing this move. We’re paying for it. Every week we send £350 million to the EU. And now millions of your hard-earned taxes are being directed to these five prospective members.' Daily Mail

I notice that he also included that famous red bus statement `Every week we send £350 million to the EU'. Which also was misleading. I'm sure Gove is clever enough to know the true facts and it just goes to show that he was deliberately trying to mislead. If it were Boris I'd put it down to other reasons, of course! No wonder we're in such a mess! :smile:

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7957
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 08 Dec 2018, 12:14

For those who say that Jeremy Corbyn has no view or is not vociferous on Brexit. Here is his unscripted speech in Lisbon to The Party of European Socialists Congress yesterday.

Ian

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2988
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 08 Dec 2018, 12:33

Tizer wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 11:51
Penny Mordaunt was wrong
Fair enough it was the first supporting quote I found. :smile:

Complicated isn't it? and she's being spoken of as a Future Tory leader, and certainly has a record of making a splash Penny Mordaunt

You've added Macedonia. Montenegro and Serbia to the list of potential new members I already named Ukraine and Moldova - and there's Albania and Georgia and Azerbaijan - where does it end?

My personal definition of a politician is some one who does things for one reason whilst pretending it is for another.

This is interesting and exemplifies my point David Cameron

He is quote as saying -

However, on Monday the Prime Minister refused to confirm whether he would use Britain’s veto to block Turkey joining, while the webpage for the British Embassy in Ankara continues to state that “We have a dedicated team working on projects to improve Turkey’s prospects of joining the EU”.

I'm off now - need to watch the racing on ITV. Probably more important . :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 9763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 08 Dec 2018, 12:46

You're quite right of course, it's all very well having a veto but not much good if your politicians use it the wrong way. And with the lot we've got at present that could very well be the case! Hope you've enjoyed the racing, I'm off for some lunch and to listen to a recording of last night's satirical Dead Ringers radio programme. :smile:

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2988
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 08 Dec 2018, 13:24

PanBiker wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 12:14
Here is his unscripted speech in Lisbon to The Party of European Socialists Congress yesterday.
Thanks for the link Ian. I've watched it all, and I've just spent a while compiling a response when for some unfathomable reason there was a ping and it all vanished. I don't have the energy to repeat the exercise. Suffice it (for now) to say I can see what his appeal is to some people, but I'm still not voting Labour. :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 46786
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Dec 2018, 03:04

Tiz, you make an interesting point about Brexit encouraging Putin. That hadn't occurred to me...
It's convoluted claim and counter-claim that has wasted over two years. Let's not join in.
General consensus seems to be an anonymous bloke as 'temporary leader' of the Tories round about the end of next week. If I am in Airedale on Wednesday morning (It's looking as though I might be....) I shall buy a paper!
David, if there is a General Election in the near future I shall be voting Labour. I'll bet Ian will as well!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

plaques
Donor
Posts: 2898
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 09 Dec 2018, 09:27

Don't worry about tuesday's Brexit vote we shall move seamlessly from cock up to chaos. No doubt the Skripal poisoning and antisemitism will feature strongly in this mix. Adding this to Russia's supposed aggression in the Ukraine along with Trump's push towards global warming and increasing their national dept to a point where the American Dollar could crash in world terms next year could turn out to be a cake walk. To quote 'Albert and the Lion' "'Fact, nothin' to laugh at at all!"

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 9763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 09 Dec 2018, 10:46

Ian, thanks for the video of the Corbyn Congress speech. I listened through it to the end rather than watched it - I had to turn away because the sound and picture were so way out of synchrony (I don't know if that was a property of the video or something to do with my PC). It was pretty much what I'd have expected him to be saying although I was surprised by him claiming so strongly to be a Remainer - he usually seems to sit on the fence ( Guardian ) and I get the impression he was claiming in this speech to be a Remainer because it suited the audience. His promises to help the poorer in society remind me of May's promises to help the `just managing'. But then we all know about politicians' promises! I think some explanation of how it's all going to happen is more important.

I still think Corbyn should bite the bullet and go on the Radio 4 Today programme. They've tried to get him on but he refuses. If he's ever going to be PM he'll have to be able to cope with the BBC presenters and not restrict himself to the comfort zone of his supporters only. He needs to project himself to the unconverted as well as the converted - or is he trying to take a leaf out of Trump's book and only speak to his trusty followers? I guess that tactic worked for Trump!

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7957
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 09 Dec 2018, 13:26

I think you might like this one better Tiz:

Ian

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 46786
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 10 Dec 2018, 03:41

But then we all know about politicians' promises!
Difference is that Corbyn is old school Labour Tiz and they don't have a bad record on looking after people....Of course I may be naive but my memory goes back a long way.
More ridiculous speculation yesterday in the papers about what 'is going to happen'. Thing is nobody knows and P is probably right, "we shall move seamlessly from cock up to chaos". All the PBI can do now is look on in awe. My guess is that the chaos will become worse as many MPs check their retirement plans......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 46786
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 10 Dec 2018, 08:15

It's just been announced by the ECJ that the UK can simply cancel Brexit without any consultations or permissions.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 9763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 10 Dec 2018, 09:48

That video is a gem! Thanks for posting it Ian. I couldn't have made a better video on the subject myself! :extrawink: Copies will be going to my friends.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

...`Brexit ruling: UK can cancel decision, EU court says' LINK
Yippee! I listened to Govey interviewed by John Humphrys this morning. He was repeating the Leavers' mantra, that `the people have spoken' and that there shouldn't be another referendum. It's time he recognised that if he wants the UK to be a populist democracy instead of what it's always been, a representative democracy, then he needs to accept his own statement, that the government must do whatever the people demand (as opposed to what might be in their best interest). So if people are demanding another referendum then he must respect their wishes. In a populist democracy the people can change their mind. He might even have to hold a referendum to decide whether `the people' want another EU referendum. And so it gets increasingly ridiculous. It's time to get rid of this flirtation with Boaty McBoatface populism and get back to a proper representative democracy where Parliament decides on issues after consulting the real experts. Let's get back to normal! :smile:

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2988
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 10 Dec 2018, 10:36

Stanley wrote:
10 Dec 2018, 08:15
It's just been announced by the ECJ that the UK can simply cancel Brexit without any consultations or permissions.
That's very kind and generous of them - perhaps soon we will be able to do anything we wish 'without consultations or permissions'. :smile:

The unusual speed with which this has been ratified by the ECJ, and made public in a very timely manner - surely to influence tomorrow's Parliamentary vote? - shows how keen they are for us not to leave. Looks to me like our negotiators had a stronger hand to play than they thought. :smile:

Stop press -
Despite Senior Cabinet Minister Mr Michael Gove just a few hours ago saying categorically that the vote would take place - the BBC are now saying that it won't. Almost definitely. What's a chap to think? :smile:
Last edited by Tripps on 10 Dec 2018, 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 9763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 10 Dec 2018, 11:35

Thomas Piketty in the Guardian...
`Our manifesto to save Europe from itself' LINK

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 46786
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 10 Dec 2018, 13:05

It's just been announced by Downing Street that the vote will be delayed. It is suggested that the EU is to be 'approached' to change the deal despite John Claude Junker stating that no changes can be countenanced.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7957
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 10 Dec 2018, 13:21

I thought that once it was on the parliamentary agenda so to speak it had to happen. I'm obviously mistaken there. She knows she has got to the end game of her tenure of the position. Won't make any difference at all she is just delaying the inevitable.
Ian

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2988
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 10 Dec 2018, 13:47

PanBiker wrote:
10 Dec 2018, 13:21
I thought that once it was on the parliamentary agenda so to speak it had to happen.
The BBC have just said that you could well be right - even their correspondent doesn't seem sure." It may even require a vote." The Leader of the House - Mother Leadsom will speak on the matter later.

Get the popcorn ready. :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7957
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 10 Dec 2018, 14:40

Just about to put it on, watching some 50 year old Family at War angst at the moment on the Talking TV channel. :smile:
Ian

User avatar
Big Kev
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2559
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 20:15
Location: Barlick

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Big Kev » 10 Dec 2018, 16:10

The delay will give her opportunity to update her CV.
Kev

A Resigned Observer

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 9763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 10 Dec 2018, 16:45

I hadn't realised that Parliament was going to put on a pantomime for us all! :smile:

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2988
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 10 Dec 2018, 17:16

Pantomime stuff indeed. Better than the snooker. :smile:

She doesn't want tomorrow's 'meaningful vote' because it's going to be very meaningful. However Buttons in the shape of John Bercow seems to be doing the right thing.

From Guido Fawkes
Speaker John Bercow has thrown a massive spanner in the works of Theresa May’s wish to delay postpone the meaningful vote scheduled for Tuesday. Stating that communing the debate and cancelling the planned vote is “premature and inconclusive”, the Speaker pushed for the Commons to vote on whether they vote tomorrow, calling it “the right and dare I say it the obvious course to take.”


So we may yet have a 'meaningful vote on whether we have 'meaningful vote'.
I think Bercow has just forfeited his peerage. :smile:

Frankly I think the only reason she survives is that no one else has the least idea what to do next, and no one really wants the job.
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7957
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 10 Dec 2018, 18:17

Not many to go now before the "Business Statement", I would expect something to happen then, move business!
Ian

User avatar
Big Kev
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2559
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 20:15
Location: Barlick

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Big Kev » 10 Dec 2018, 18:45

Image
Kev

A Resigned Observer

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7957
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 10 Dec 2018, 19:09

:biggrin2: No mobiles Kev! :smile:
Ian

Post Reply

Return to “Current Affairs & Comment”